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If the econmy fails

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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by DDHv   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:21 pm

DDHv
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The E wrote:
DDHv wrote:Paper money isn't worth much, and digital is worth less. The only usefulness is that they can easily be traded for something with real value. When there is no intrinsic value, the trade value can drop to almost nothing at any time that people lose confidence in it
:|


What, pray tell, is this "intrinsic value" you speak of?


Gold can be used for jewelry and some small industrial uses. Silver has many other industrial uses. Paper can be used to start a fire or to wipe things. Many goods that can be bartered have been used as money in the past. To some extent, any money is only worth what it can be traded for, but digital money has no other worth. We have a hobby of intensive gardening - if there is a major breakdown, people will still need to eat. It should be possible to barter food and/or training. At present, we can cut our grocery bills by a large percentage using this.

Intrinsic value is what XXX is worth when its use as currency is subtracted. Agreed, the intrinsic value is much smaller than the currency value, but for some things, the value cannot literally go to zero. Paper money can come pretty close, though
:|

All from:

http://cfif.org/v/index.php/commentary/ ... y-obsolete

Most Americans living below the official poverty line today have central air-conditioning, cable television for multiple TV sets, own at least one motor vehicle, and have many other amenities that most of the human race never had for most of its existence.


Welfare state guarantees of not having to work, however the particular policies are applied, are not a solution. Relieving people of personal responsibility for their own lives, however it is done, is a major part of the problem.


In an entitlement context, all sorts of "gaps" and "disparities" automatically become "inequities," and a reason for lashing out at others, instead of improving yourself. Only in a society in which rewards are based on contributions is there any reasonable reply to the question as to why Bill Gates has so much and others so little.


For the first time in many decades, American average productivity has decreased. There is a limit to what can be done by "financial engineering" instead of real engineering. When people start thinking they are entitled to a good living, that they don't have a good living, and that they will do better by throwing public tantrums AKA riots, instead of becoming more valuable as producers . . .. Historically, this pattern doesn't turn out well. We are living in the present system, but assume there can be some really nasty black swan changes
:(

So, we have a profitable hobby that can provide real intrinsic value in most situations. Provided we live through them, of course
:!:
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by HB of CJ   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:07 pm

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Money can and has failed. Lots of historical events. Intrinsic value can apply to practically anything. Bartering works within small groups. This can include applied skills or future considerations of almost anything materially useful or needed.
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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by Senior Chief   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:05 am

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Location: Bear Flag Republic - San Diego, CA

DDHv wrote:
Bill Bonner wrote:In modern America, long complex chains of production and distribution put food on your table and gas in your car.


Hmmm... Well in my case the 15 acres of mountainside in the high northern mountains where the family cabin sits on is paid for. The power for the lights comes in the form of both wind generators and solar... I have a spring for freshwater that is pumped by the windmill into the house and watertanks (that still flows despite California's drought.) There is years of canned goods in the basement and frozen food in the freezer. Ham Radio for communications. Weapons and ammo for hunting and protection (because the police only solve crimes they do not stop a crime). I guess my family is set... No we are not Prepers just after having parents and grandparents live through the "real depression" the family is prepared, not over extended, self reliant... Most of our money (in a secure vault)is in the form of precious metals that can not be lost due to an electronic glitch in the banking system, stolen via ID theft or otherwise or looted like what happened in some European counties when their economy failed.

Be prepared "the motto of a Boy Scout"!!!
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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by Daryl   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:21 am

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Bravo Senior Chief. When it hits the fan I'll be coming for a visit.
Just a joke, wrong continent. We're somewhat similar, although possibly not quite as far along.
Own water systems, bore and 10,000 gallons of rainwater. Wood stove and acres of woodland. Solar panels and generator if needed. Vegetable garden and the knowledge/seeds to expand it if required. Guns and ammunition, but probably on a smaller scale.
Lots of usable stuff, from racks full of milled timber, sheds full of building materials, tools, pipes and plumbing stuff, and a knowledge to do many things from dressing out cattle and sheep carcasses to a chemistry degree, to able to rebuild engines and so on.
Like you not a prepper, but an adversary to Murphy.
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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by Annachie   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:07 am

Annachie
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I want to get to that point but don't have the money. Nor quite enough land I suppose.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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still not dead. :)
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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:55 am

PeterZ
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Location: Colorado

I have my eye on 10 acres of mountainside property that backs to federal land. My current home was purchased at the bottom of the last real estate dip. Should have no issues renting to offset the purchase price. I've been playing around with wind and solar powered electrolysis to generate hydrogen for energy storage. I figure IC engines can be converted to hydrogen and turbine generators for those times wind and sun are not cooperative.

Still a bit steep to do it all alone. Setting up a co-op will be necessary.
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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by Senior Chief   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:36 pm

Senior Chief
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Bear Flag Republic - San Diego, CA

Daryl wrote:Bravo Senior Chief. When it hits the fan I'll be coming for a visit.
Just a joke, wrong continent. We're somewhat similar, although possibly not quite as far along.
Own water systems, bore and 10,000 gallons of rainwater. Wood stove and acres of woodland. Solar panels and generator if needed. Vegetable garden and the knowledge/seeds to expand it if required. Guns and ammunition, but probably on a smaller scale.
Lots of usable stuff, from racks full of milled timber, sheds full of building materials, tools, pipes and plumbing stuff, and a knowledge to do many things from dressing out cattle and sheep carcasses to a chemistry degree, to able to rebuild engines and so on.
Like you not a prepper, but an adversary to Murphy.


We also have loads of blackberry bushes... My grandfather built a barbwire fenceline (4 strands) then planted blackberry bushes that use the strands to cling to. There is now after 40 plus years a thick barrier of thorns and berries that circle the property... the berries bring in quail, deer, the occasional elk, and bear; all of which end up in the freezer. Plenty of firewood available so that is not a problem.

Yeah not a Preper I do not need an underground bunker to hide from the "end of the world zombie plague". :)
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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by DDHv   » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:08 am

DDHv
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Annachie wrote:I want to get to that point but don't have the money. Nor quite enough land I suppose.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


I started by talking my landlady into letting me plant half a dozen tomatoes next to the garage. The trick is to take your saving/profits, and re-invest them into something that increases, instead of just consuming more elsewhere. Some people are using container gardening, etc. If you live in an apartment, search on "apartment gardening." The sustainable movement (improving the current situation) and survivalist movement (if things collapse totally) both have many idea resources, the effort is in trimming down to what you can do NOW.

Mother Earth News has been a resource - at present, for $25.00 you can get a thumb memory with all their articles from 1970 on - no pictures or ads. Evaluate your own particular situation, and design your plan to fit.

Start where you are, no matter how small the start
:!:
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:04 am

PeterZ
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Location: Colorado

Are there any chemists out there to answer a question? Is there a way to store hydrogen in some easy to access compound?

I would like to be able to use wind and solar to generate electricity and hydrogen for peak usage. I would also like to use hydrogen for converted IC engines. The trouble is storage. Storing hydrogen as a gas is difficult and cumbersome.

Is there a compound I can bind hydrogen into and then extract it again later?
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Re: If the econmy fails
Post by DDHv   » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:11 am

DDHv
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Posts: 481
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:59 pm

PeterZ wrote:Are there any chemists out there to answer a question? Is there a way to store hydrogen in some easy to access compound?

I would like to be able to use wind and solar to generate electricity and hydrogen for peak usage. I would also like to use hydrogen for converted IC engines. The trouble is storage. Storing hydrogen as a gas is difficult and cumbersome.

Is there a compound I can bind hydrogen into and then extract it again later?


As always, cost is the critical element. Search on (hydrogen storage "Metal hydride"). There may be something else also, but at present this is the most likely
:|
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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