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Battletech

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Re: Battletech
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:24 am

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Duckk wrote:Loading AC2s onto an assault mech is literally the worst thing you can do.
Not exactly, that would be the AC-5 the AC-2 does less damage but is mitigated with better range, the AC-5 has the worst overall Damage/Weight/Range profile of any weapon in the game.


Duckk wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:I have to say that the XL engine has been a favourite of mine. But I suppose an Atlas with a 200 standard engine might be better with MASC if you need to cross an open area. Not so good in open terrain.


You're paying 5 tons and 5 crits to boost your run MP by 1. That's a criminal use of crit slots, especially for Inner Sphere assault mechs which are always crit starved.
it also goes a long way toward that 9.5tn for the full up 300pt 3/5. the XL is 9.5tn, where the 200st is 8.5tn + 5tn for MASK and that's 13.5, only 6tn short that's < 1 PPC/AC2 or a few smaller weapons.
Last edited by MAD-4A on Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Battletech
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:34 am

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Duckk wrote:3x UAC2s would be horrible with TarComps.
Not as bad as all that, though the to-hit bonus doesn't apply to the 2nd shot, that's a pure 8+ 41.66% assuming the first shot hits.


Duckk wrote:
I'm torn between a pair of Medium X-Pulse or a single Large ER or X Pulse.


Apples and oranges. Medium X-Pulses are good (albeit hot) for brawling. The ER Large Laser is a sniping weapon, and the Large X-Pulse is for midrange combat.
I hate X-Ps I consider them a tech-stepping stone to longer range (Clan type) pulses only. I use the pulses for SR combat so range isn't an issue, I have other things for that.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Battletech
Post by Duckk   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:55 am

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Not as bad as all that, though the to-hit bonus doesn't apply to the 2nd shot, that's a pure 8+ 41.66% assuming the first shot hits.


6 tons, 6 crits to TarComp 3x UAC2s, not counting any other direct fire weapons? That's pretty massive.
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Re: Battletech
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:15 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:There is something to say for the high heat long range where you can shut down to control extreme heat and remove yourself from sensors but while you are shut down I'm peeling the paint off your cockpit.
Except I don't. A properly designed Mech should have the heat capacity to handle all the weapons of a range bracket + movement, so a Mech with 2 ER-PPCs should have 32 heat (16 DHS is easy to mount). as you take damage, yes it's possible to hit HS, but no more so than Ammo bins and by then you'll likely be losing weapons as well.
Lord Skimper wrote:Having a lower hit option, multiple tries is better than one single try. 2-6 rolls for a hit vs 1 If you hit 25% of the time on average you can do the same damage with six hits coming in but many times you miss 8 times in a row, then hit for 4.
If you consider 8+ as an average to-hit (which is fair as the actual numbers vary so much - and it corresponds to the follow-up number for the ultras) then your looking at 41.66% to hit. This number can be applied to the damage capacity of the weapon. that means that a, ER-PPC does 4.166pt of damage on average. so 2 ER-PPCs do 8.33 points per turn (1 big 8pt hit average). each AC-2 round does .833pt per shot fired, on average. which means 3 AC-2U firing double rate do a total of 5pts per turn in 2pt plinks. so over the course of 10 turns, the ER=PPCs do 80pt for 8 big concentrated 10pt holes in your armor where your 3xAC-2Us do an average total of 50pts of damage. That's 25 2pt plinks scattered all over the Mech. much less chance of penetration and crit damage. The one advantage you do have is the 69.44% change of head & Snake-eye rolls to my 22.22% change, though if Box-cars are rolled, yours is going to plink off for 1pt to MW 3+ con check, where mine is going in! Crit-roll!

Lord Skimper wrote:

I don't like LRM or SRM missiles as anti missile systems just eat them away to nothing. With Anti missile system SRM are useless. With laser Anti missile you best just not have them.
I've never had that problem. The AMS is a rare thing on standard units and most people don't bother putting them on customs very often, because they are specialized against only 1 type of weapon (missiles). As to raking LRM-20s - 1 AMS can only engage 1 missile system per turn, so the other 2 are un-hampered (the worth of the Salamander and Naginata). the simple solution to this is, my favorite, the LRM-5. I like the Longbow. If you run into someone with AMSs, then split fire, fire the LRM-5s at him (along with any others you have - Assassin, Thorn, Pattons etc...) and fire the 20s at targets without AMS. this forces him to waste his AMS on small salvos of only 5 missiles each. The same can be done with SRM/Stk-2s.
Lord Skimper wrote:Bull rushing a MDM 40 is a terrible idea.
No, you just keep your movement and terrain mods up and they can't hit anything. (oh my PPC has a 12 to-hit, your MDMs are a 13? to-bad I can still hit you!) I hate anything with a +1 penalty to-hit, it's hard enough without penalties, apply them to the #-of-missiles table not the to-hit.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Battletech
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:37 pm

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Not to gang-up on Lord Skimper,
Duckk wrote:if you're moving only 2/3, you're not going to be generating a target movement modifier, making it a lot easier to hit you.
This is true, yet the Annihilator is successful anyway (and it has weak armor for it's size). I entered a competition once (in the 80s before 2750) where I had a 100tn Mech with 2/3/2 (JJ to allow reverse and move in same turn) but it carried 3xPPC, 7xML and 32HS with near Max armor. would have won if I wasn't ganged up on! :evil:
Duckk wrote:I have no idea why you think energy weapons will make you immediately shutdown. Many canon mechs built for long range energy engagements usually have enough heat sinks to engage at range with no heat issues.
To be fare, most 3025 book Mechs were badly designed, the WHM-6R had only 18hs, the MAD-3R had only 16, and the RFL-3N had 2LL,2AC-5s with only 10HS so there is some precedence here (just not stupid enough to make them that way myself)Death by papercut doesn't work in most situations. Unless you really cheese the mechanics by using a couple dozen of Machine Guns or ER Micro Lasers.[/quote]Like the Clan Piranha. This doesn't work either. You may get one good zap in but after that your other players are going to watch for it... that Jenner was at 8 hexes from my Javelin, but he didn't check to-hit numbers???!!! It's a machinegun boat, kill it before it closes!
Duckk wrote:... it is always better to get concentrated damage over scattered damage. 20 damage from a AC20 is going to cripple a light or medium mech, if not destroy it outright; and even a heavy and assault mech is going to be stripped of armor. 20 damage scattered all over the mech's body is an irritation. The only time you'd want scattered damage is after the armor has been breached in a location, then something like a LBX autocannon or a brace of SRMs would give you a great chance of scoring critical hits.
This is true, one of the stupidest things in the books was where Phelan Kell fired his LBX first to "weaken the armor" then fired his big gun to penetrate! idiot, fire the big gun first to make a hole then the LBX to drop a BB inside for crits :roll: !
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Battletech
Post by Duckk   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:52 pm

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This is true, yet the Annihilator is successful anyway (and it has weak armor for it's size). I entered a competition once (in the 80s before 2750) where I had a 100tn Mech with 2/3/2 (JJ to allow reverse and move in same turn) but it carried 3xPPC, 7xML and 32HS with near Max armor. would have won if I wasn't ganged up on! :evil:


But the Annihilator had to contend with Succession Wars-ridden Inner Sphere designs which had their speeds and weapon ranges reduced. Surviving to get into range was less of a problem back then. Nowadays, with everyone and their pet dog packing some kind of ER or Gauss weapon, it's not as viable anymore.

To be fare, most 3025 book Mechs were badly designed, the WHM-6R had only 18hs, the MAD-3R had only 16, and the RFL-3N had 2LL,2AC-5s with only 10HS so there is some precedence here (just not stupid enough to make them that way myself)


A fair point, but I was restricting myself to post-3050. Succession Wars era was more about juggling heat management and lumbering into melee range than it is in later eras.

Like the Clan Piranha. This doesn't work either. You may get one good zap in but after that your other players are going to watch for it... that Jenner was at 8 hexes from my Javelin, but he didn't check to-hit numbers???!!! It's a machinegun boat, kill it before it closes!


And is thus the exception that proves the rule: papercut damage isn't viable because you either are doing pitiful damage per turn, or you're forced into cheese designs that other players frown upon and will go out of their way to smack down.
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Re: Battletech
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:15 pm

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Duckk wrote:6 tons, 6 crits to TarComp 3x UAC2s, not counting any other direct fire weapons? That's pretty massive.
True, I hadn't considered the TC itself.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Battletech
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:46 pm

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Duckk wrote:But the Annihilator had to contend with Succession Wars-ridden Inner Sphere designs which had their speeds and weapon ranges reduced. Surviving to get into range was less of a problem back then. Nowadays, with everyone and their pet dog packing some kind of ER or Gauss weapon, it's not as viable anymore.
not really, it's more specialized and requires support, no going out and dueling with a Daishi or anything, but 4xLB-10X can still have their uses and upgrades to LGRs are really nasty direct-fire support.
Duckk wrote:A fair point, but I was restricting myself to post-3050. Succession Wars era was more about juggling heat management and lumbering into melee range than it is in later eras.
That's because of the DHS that alone gives any Mech +10 heat, for free! But even back then, I had proper mods that worked just fine, My WHM-6S - basically a -6D but with 11tn armor, 21HS & 5xML (the original 2, upgrade the 2xSL to 2xML and add a 5th to the head) I can walk and fire both PPCs or run and fire all 5 MLs (depending on target range) without overheat. My RFL-3S retains the 2xLL, yanks the 2xML (redundant anyway) and replaces the 2xAC-5 with 2xLL, Yea! 4xLL (2 each arm) I added +7 HS and +2tn armor (9.5= to Griffin) it could walk and fire 1 arm without overheat (the 2nd was for redundancy - and mini-looks) or it could stand still (if air attack passes over) and fry all 4 at the passing air unit, overheat +15 (maybe shut down) next turn cool completely as air unit turns around for another pass. (if it survived - 4 8pt hits could cripple any ASF)

Duckk wrote:And is thus the exception that proves the rule: papercut damage isn't viable because you either are doing pitiful damage per turn, or you're forced into cheese designs that other players frown upon and will go out of their way to smack down.
Well, the main problem is the spread. Let say (for an extreme example) we do away with the HLT and the defender gets to decide where he takes the damage, you can hit an Atlas with 150xAC-2 rounds (or SRM/MGs) - 300pt of damage! - and do little or no internal damage, (Red1:)"just impacted on the surface". You hit that Atlas with 15xAC-20 rounds and SOMETHINGS coming off! Regardless of hit locations, the 11th round is going in!

So lets do the math between 4 Atlases, 2 on each side, 1 side has AC-2/SRM/MGs the other Twin AC-20s and (all else being =) each side does 600pt of damage, split between the 2 opponents, with dead average location rolls:

This means that both sides took: H=16.7, R/LA=83.3, R/LL=66.7, R/LT=83.3, CT=116.7. rounded per round that's:(AC-2)H=8, R/LA=42e, R/LL=33e, R/LT=42e, CT=58
(AC-20)H=1, R/LA=4, R/LL=3, R/LT=4, CT=6 (+ 1 to a A,L,ST due to all rounding down)

This means that both AC-20 Atlases took H=4hits (8pt-badly hurt pilots but not dead and Armor intact), R/LA=21hits each (42pt-armor striped with internal damage but still have IS left), R/LL=16-18hits (32-34pt no internals), R/LT=21hits each (42pt-armor striped with internal damage (unless they turn to take damage to rear) but still have IS left), and CT=28hits each (56pt-armor striped with internal damage (unless they turn to take damage to rear) but still have IS left)+4 crit rolls for 2s, Yea, they've been in the thick of it but barring lucky crits or pilot con checks still mobile and functioning.
now:
The AC-2 Atlases took H=1hit (20pt-1 dead pilot), R/LA=2hits each (40pt-armor striped with internal damage but still have IS left), R/LL=1-2hits (20-40pt no internals), R/LT=2hits each (40pt-armor striped with internal damage but still have IS left), and CT=3hits each (60pt-armor striped with internal damage but still have IS left)+1 crit rolls for 2, at-least 1 dead with the other as crippled as the AC-20s are & no turning you back because those AC-20s are going through anyway.

Still the 2s are going to get a lot more crit rolls, but that's probably after one ends up paste-in-a-can, and the 20s will get their crit rolls a whole lot sooner since the 2s are going to have to peal off all of the armor first instead of just a few hits in one location.

Probably, the worst unit in the entire game is http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier absolutely useless. The only use I can come up with is putting 1 in with a platoon of LRM carriers for close defense, but there are so many better designs for this purpose. I'd rather have a 4th LRM carrier and spread them out so they can cover each other and fire IDF over the hill. Its 1)slower than a turtle 2)Short Range & 3) light armor. and they didn't even give them turrets despite there appearance. I've only ever used one effectively (ambush in urban alleyway), it still didn't kill the target and just died the next fire phase (crap armor).
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Battletech
Post by Lord Skimper   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:19 pm

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I designed an Unarmed mech once. Pure scout too small to do anything offensive.

Are there any new Battletech computer games for computer? I have 4 vengeance but it shows its age.
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Re: Battletech
Post by The E   » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:55 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:Are there any new Battletech computer games for computer? I have 4 vengeance but it shows its age.


There will be soon
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