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Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India

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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by Spacekiwi   » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:20 am

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Although I dont have one, my brother has modular due to the layout of his case, as it just reduces the number of cable outs he has to hide, and reduces the cables that need hiding in the back, as he has a very thin back space. It's like sleeving, a prefernece thing that improves looks a little, but nothing else. But for some people, thats enough to justify it. In a m-atx or other small space case, modular might be even more important, especially if you have short cables as well.

Relax wrote:Over the years I have seen 0 difference in power supplies for durability. Differences in brief power outings. Differences in efficiency, but not longevity. Their caps all die. Heck just yesterday pulled a 5HP motor off an air-compressor because the caps were corroded and one was blown while the other brushed up nicely. At least caps on motors are VERY simple to replace. Harder on a multilayer circuit board. Gotta cut em off high and solder new on. If you wish to keep using your PC power supplies figure out which capacitor is bad and replace. It will keep running just fine. Till the next cap goes bad of course. :evil:

Buying a modular power supply is just a way to suck more money out of the consumers pockets. If you are so out of brain power that one cannot figure out how to tie up unused power connectors... :? :o :shock:
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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by Tenshinai   » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:32 am

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Relax wrote:Over the years I have seen 0 difference in power supplies for durability. Differences in brief power outings. Differences in efficiency, but not longevity. Their caps all die. Heck just yesterday pulled a 5HP motor off an air-compressor because the caps were corroded and one was blown while the other brushed up nicely. At least caps on motors are VERY simple to replace. Harder on a multilayer circuit board. Gotta cut em off high and solder new on. If you wish to keep using your PC power supplies figure out which capacitor is bad and replace. It will keep running just fine. Till the next cap goes bad of course. :evil:

Buying a modular power supply is just a way to suck more money out of the consumers pockets. If you are so out of brain power that one cannot figure out how to tie up unused power connectors... :? :o :shock:



The differences are huge. Yes they all age. One very common difference however is that a high quality PSU might last 5-10 years even at rated power draw, while a low quality PSU might not be able to supply rated draw even out of the box.

The reason you don´t see this all the time, is because it has become normal to put laughably overrated PSUs in systems. A CPU draws 30+125W, a mid to highend GPU draws 100-200W, unless you have a lot of special components, the rest of a system will probably not draw over 50-100W, and on systems like that, buyers commonly get 650 or even 750W PSUs. Despite components not getting above even 500W. Or maybe even 400W.


However, poor PSUs also commonly causes instability and damage to systems. Ripple, line noise, power droop and at worst even power spikes are all things that happen dramatically more on low quality PSUs.
Power spikes are essentially unknown on quality PSUs, and many will let a computer survive undamaged even if there is a spike from the wallsocket, something that would likely flashfry a poor PSU and the system it was in.

Oh and then there´s the issue with how poor PSUs are nearly always less effective than quality ones, which means to get the same amount of wattage to the computer, the PSU has to draw more from the wallsocket.
Example:
System draws 400W on a good PSU with 90% efficiency, actual draw at the wall is then around 445W.
System draws 400W on a poor PSU with 60% efficiency, actual draw at the wall is then around 667W.
If your system is running 10 hours a day, that´s 2 kWh extra per day.

Not a massive difference in costs, but the cost difference between a quality PSU and the poor one is probably easily paid for in less than a year just by that alone.

And a poor PSU will make sure that any computer parts that had any flaws when you got them, WILL break within a year or two, when with a good PSU that supplies "cleaner" power, they might have survived until you got a new system.

I can say this, i´ve fixed computers for a lot of people, and at least a third of them would never have needed fixing at all if not for a poor PSU.
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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by Relax   » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:03 pm

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Tenshinai: I have been playing with Power supplies and computers longer than you have been alive. Maybe it is an English translation thing, but I specifically stated what is and isn't part of durability in the next couple of sentences that you did not bold.

Its all about the capacitors for durability and then it has FAR more to do with the caps on the motherboard than the power supply as there are not the long antenna power feed lines to deal with as said caps on the MB are so much closer. You are probably mistaking PS and MB ripple power attenuation. You are speaking as if Power supplies are not regulated like the industry was not 15 years ago and longer. The Power Supply ancient truths/myths keep being promulgated on internet forums. For the last 10-15 years, there literally is not a bad power supply able to be purchased by a consumer. So, whatever "failures" you are seeing in computers, are probably the MB inadequate capacitors. Yes, Power supplies fail. What doesn't.

I have a 35 year old computer running just fine outside of blown caps in the PS and MB's that need replacing. Though last time I booted, one of the 16 byte RAM chips, yes you read correctly, 16 BYTES, died. Had to hunt it down and replace. That was top of the line stuff back then. Hella expensive. Had entire MB's full of said chips. Had to worry about trace length even back then.

I booted for the maze program. I had the desire for a real maze. It was a self generating random maze program that would be as long as one wished when printed. Dot matrix printer style of course for you wet behind the ears jet printer and laser boys. Just select the number of pages desired and have fun.
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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by smr   » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:22 am

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First, I did tie off my wires that are being used. The reason I spent an extra $40 for a plug in power supply because I was willing to pay for this nice little feature. (No, it's not necessary for plug in power supply.) My case looks neat, clean, and aesthetically pleasing to my eyes.
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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by Spacekiwi   » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:47 pm

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Thats the biggest nit for me: the good power supplies werent colour co-ordinated with the rest of my case. i have a nice red and black build, but then i have a whole lot of yellow and orange cables from my psu to everything else, and spare connectors that had to be hid . :(
oh well, i got a 600w psu for the price of a 350w, and its a good model too, with 80+ bronze, so it will do me well for the next few years. :)

smr wrote:First, I did tie off my wires that are being used. The reason I spent an extra $40 for a plug in power supply because I was willing to pay for this nice little feature. (No, it's not necessary for plug in power supply.) My case looks neat, clean, and aesthetically pleasing to my eyes.
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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by wastedfly   » Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:40 am

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Spacekiwi wrote:Thats the biggest nit for me: the good power supplies werent colour co-ordinated with the rest of my case. i have a nice red and black build, but then i have a whole lot of yellow and orange cables from my psu to everything else, and spare connectors that had to be hid . :(
oh well, i got a 600w psu for the price of a 350w, and its a good model too, with 80+ bronze, so it will do me well for the next few years. :)

smr wrote:First, I did tie off my wires that are being used. The reason I spent an extra $40 for a plug in power supply because I was willing to pay for this nice little feature. (No, it's not necessary for plug in power supply.) My case looks neat, clean, and aesthetically pleasing to my eyes.


The Wattage rating means nothing. Why? Wattage(power) is not defined and therefore just like the hardware store selling "3HP" motors(when in reality they are at best 1/4HP), someone can slap just about whatever "wattage" rating they want on a power supply and technically not be lying. Just like efficiency ratings mean squat. Efficiency at what voltage and current level? There are 3V, 5V, and 12V rails. High efficiency on one rail is useless when majority of power is used on the other rail...

Ripple voltage is addressed by capacitors on the MB as the length of the power cord from the power supply will pick up plenty of induced ripple voltage and no one is spec'ing shielded power cables because the thousands of feet of traces on the MB itself also picks up the RF inducing ripple voltages far in excess to specs allowed at the CPU level. Why all those caps must be as close as possible to the CPU.

Ho hum...

Outside of silentpcreview.com power supply reviews, I do not trust anyone's reviews for efficiency. Everyone elses is a joke.

Power supply durability is more tied to how cool one keeps the electronics and nothing else. Once it overheats, well, poof, goes the power supply just like all other electronics.
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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by Spacekiwi   » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:08 pm

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Well, using the standard of 80% efficiency at 20, 50 and 100% of load, like the 80+ standard requires, and for my particular psu, rated over all the rails, the 3, 5 and 12. It draws at max, 120w over the 3 and 5, and 550 over the 12, and 15 w on the -3 and -5 rails, giving it giving it an actual max wattage of 585, which for me was close enough to the stated ratinmg of 600, along with its cost, to make it my choice for a psu. My PSU even has a nice chart with the voltage and currents on top, to show you how current times voltage equals power(watts.)And what about Johnnyguru for psu reviews as well?


wastedfly wrote:
The Wattage rating means nothing. Why? Wattage(power) is not defined and therefore just like the hardware store selling "3HP" motors(when in reality they are at best 1/4HP), someone can slap just about whatever "wattage" rating they want on a power supply and technically not be lying. Just like efficiency ratings mean squat. Efficiency at what voltage and current level? There are 3V, 5V, and 12V rails. High efficiency on one rail is useless when majority of power is used on the other rail...

Ripple voltage is addressed by capacitors on the MB as the length of the power cord from the power supply will pick up plenty of induced ripple voltage and no one is spec'ing shielded power cables because the thousands of feet of traces on the MB itself also picks up the RF inducing ripple voltages far in excess to specs allowed at the CPU level. Why all those caps must be as close as possible to the CPU.

Ho hum...

Outside of silentpcreview.com power supply reviews, I do not trust anyone's reviews for efficiency. Everyone elses is a joke.

Power supply durability is more tied to how cool one keeps the electronics and nothing else. Once it overheats, well, poof, goes the power supply just like all other electronics.
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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by wastedfly   » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:42 pm

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Spacekiwi wrote:Well, using the standard of 80% efficiency at 20, 50 and 100% of load, like the 80+ standard requires, and for my particular psu, rated over all the rails, the 3, 5 and 12. It draws at max, 120w over the 3 and 5, and 550 over the 12, and 15 w on the -3 and -5 rails, giving it giving it an actual max wattage of 585, which for me was close enough to the stated ratinmg of 600, along with its cost, to make it my choice for a psu. My PSU even has a nice chart with the voltage and currents on top, to show you how current times voltage equals power(watts.)And what about Johnnyguru for psu reviews as well?


Just looked at Johnnyguru.com
Did not know they existed.
Looks fairly good...

I have no idea how he is measuring AC WATTS. Is he using RMS? If he is doing the typical Halo sensor to voltmeter simplistic approach, he is not measuring actual power. If not, then his efficiency means nothing. DC WATTS definition does not change, as there is no frequency involved, but AC WATTAGE has no true standard. Most use RMS AC WATTAGE as the standard along with PF(lag/lead). I noticed he used PF, but is he measuring the power at the PF, or ignoring the correction factor and therefore the wattage? Residential, nearly all of us, do not have PF as part of our power bill.

I also note that the "80 plus standard" does not define itself either, so once again, it means ~~~ close enough, but does not really exist as a standard at all. In short, could easily be off by 10-25% due to inadequacies of the standard itself and still achieve "gold" status.

Anyone have the IEEE standard for PSU efficiency? This will be the true definition, not this hocus pocus, government oversight baloney.
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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by Spacekiwi   » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:57 am

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He apparently uses a professional setup, using a automated load tester and other diagnostic equipment. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=Testing_Methodology


Unfortunately, 80+ is an volunatry industy standard, and not iso. Its ran by a company called ecos, who licenses out the logo and certification. It is defined though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_Plus
http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80PlusPowerSupplies.aspx#


Regarding IEEE, http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf is what i managed to find.


hope that helps. :)
wastedfly wrote:
Just looked at Johnnyguru.com
Did not know they existed.
Looks fairly good...

I have no idea how he is measuring AC WATTS. Is he using RMS? If he is doing the typical Halo sensor to voltmeter simplistic approach, he is not measuring actual power. If not, then his efficiency means nothing. DC WATTS definition does not change, as there is no frequency involved, but AC WATTAGE has no true standard. Most use RMS AC WATTAGE as the standard along with PF(lag/lead). I noticed he used PF, but is he measuring the power at the PF, or ignoring the correction factor and therefore the wattage? Residential, nearly all of us, do not have PF as part of our power bill.

I also note that the "80 plus standard" does not define itself either, so once again, it means ~~~ close enough, but does not really exist as a standard at all. In short, could easily be off by 10-25% due to inadequacies of the standard itself and still achieve "gold" status.

Anyone have the IEEE standard for PSU efficiency? This will be the true definition, not this hocus pocus, government oversight baloney.
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Re: Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support in India
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:49 pm

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Tenshinai: I have been playing with Power supplies and computers longer than you have been alive.

:lol:

That´s an interesting claim. Or more correctly, a blatant and arrogant lie. Not to mention that it´s a pathetic use of a logical fallacy.

The first standardised PSU came in 1981(anything before that effectively becomes irrelevant as designs and implementations varied wildly).

I was plenty well and alive by that time.

I also helped my older brother solder his own homebuild PSU for his Acorn Atom(as his many added PCBs caused the original PSU to fail) just a year or two later.

Maybe it is an English translation thing


Nope, i think the problem lies with you not knowing quite as much as you want to think.

For the last 10-15 years, there literally is not a bad power supply able to be purchased by a consumer.


Are you for real? :lol:

I mean seriously, *ROFLMAO!!!*

So why don´t you tell us all then, why the production line of some specific low quality companies churn out cheap PSUs, 20% of which are dead within the year, and 5% of which has killed the computer they were powering in that same time?
Meanwhile, the numbers for a halfdecent production line is less than 1% and less than 0.1%, and effectively, completely nonexistant from a high quality model(essentially a high quality model isn´t going to fail within a year without some kind of outside influence).

And those numbers are based on real ones even if they´re not 100% precision perfect. Just close enough for a simple comparison.

You are probably mistaking PS and MB ripple power attenuation.


Not really no. Poor motherboard design is bad enough, but if you also use a poor PSU at the same time, things wont work well(or might just fail completely).

So, whatever "failures" you are seeing in computers, are probably the MB inadequate capacitors.


Yeah, because motherboard caps SOOO often causes PSUs to catch fire, lol. Seen it happen. The motherboard in those cases were completely fine when provided with a working PSU.


The only thing you keep proving with your posts is that you don´t know anything.

The johnnyguru site was mentioned, why don´t you go there and check what rates PSUs on, might give you a few amazing insights and some valuable knowledge.
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