Sustainability vs Survivalist

Daryl wrote:Preservation of food has many benefits. If from the dawn of time we had access to refrigeration we wouldn't have - ham, bacon, corn beef, pastrami, salami, jam, alcoholic beverages, dried fruit, chutney, many spices, pasta, and much more.

Smoking is a preservation method as well.

and the combination of smoking and dehydration used to produce jerky is also a natural method of preservation.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Daryl wrote:Preservation of food has many benefits. If from the dawn of time we had access to refrigeration we wouldn't have - ham, bacon, corn beef, pastrami, salami, jam, alcoholic beverages, dried fruit, chutney, many spices, pasta, and much more.

Smoking is a preservation method as well.

and the combination of smoking and dehydration used to produce jerky is also a natural method of preservation.

I get a laugh out of those who think nitrites in meat is a bad thing. It is a natural preservative that people have been doing for thousands of years when they stuff sausage with herbs and then hang them up to "dry". Herbs ferment and produce nitrites. Such sausage has been recorded as being wholly edible on the regular decades later. I have not seen the documentation, but someone claimed over a couple hundred, though it must have tasted like sawdust. Smoking as a preservative is junk in comparison.

I forgot butter and cheese, plus the oils (olive etc).

There doesn't seem to be a thread for this, and I don't want to start a new one, so here is a "force fit."

http://townhall.com/columnists/pauldrie ... n-n1960093

England’s winter death rate this year is almost one-third higher than normal: nearly 29,000 deaths in a two-week period in January, largely because people can no longer afford to heat their homes properly, due to UK climate policies.

It is too bad that so many people don't truly understand that evidence should ALWAYS trump theory. The trouble is that it takes work and humility to apply this pattern.

God has made us real people, in a real universe, with real choices, that have real consequences; and sometimes our choices have effects on other people, such as the 29,000 mentioned above.


Daryl, thank you for the evidence. I would appreciate links whenever possible, so it can be followed up in more detail when there is enough spare time. Evidence may be boring, but without it how can we really test anything? In particular, I would like to know what methods you are using to test the Townhall posts.

Insulation helps a lot! We have a spare time project of adding about 7 inches of insulation in the attic. Unexpected bonus - a lathe was missing above an interior wall, producing a 4 ft long gap allowing house air to escape.

We put a giant sunroom on the south a decade back, which has paid for itself in reduced heating bills. For those interested, a few fans that blow air in the summer through the basement and up into the house costs less than air conditioning to run, and warms the basement also. In fall and spring, we reverse the fans. Winter, we button up except for afternoons of sunny days. About a third decrease on the heat bill. (North Dakota, USA)

PS I get grumpy whenever it is possible to prove that someone has been going by any theory without checking for solid evidence. Proof takes work and isn't always possible.

If you know anyone who can really live by the assumption that they are nothing more than a chemical machine, it is more than I do.

PPS, I was wanting to mention:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/natural- ... HE%20eNews

The Sustainable Herbs Project is preparing to create an interactive documentary website where consumers can go to learn about the industry from a third party, one with nothing to defend but the right to understand.

I could devote pages to demolishing this in detail, but that would be boring so I'll just say that there is so much in this link and post that is made up and not factual that I wouldn't know which to debunk first.

Damn it I'll mention a couple, without quoting pages of boring evidence.

The countries that are embracing sustainable technology are those that are winning the economic race. Try Germany, China, France, New Zealand, Scandinavia, Australia and many others.
In the UK most households now have central heating that is powered by piped natural gas, much of which comes from Russia, and the price has been steadily dropping. Just ask Putin and his accountants. I do agree that this is a strategic vulnerability, but not from increasing costs.

A little research indicates that this spike in deaths was from a couple of years ago, when the UK had a record cold winter, that many attribute to climate change due to burning fossil fuels. Since then sustainable measures like home insulation and cheaper cleaner fuels have reversed the death rate trend.

Every time a "town hall" link comes on and I'm silly enough to click on it the site has rabid tea party propaganda, plus my virus and pop up blockers have to work full time so their ethics are quite questionable.

Personally I installed solar panels 7 years ago, they paid themselves off by 3 years ago, and I hope to continue never having to pay an electricity bill again.

Finally each to his own, but I disagree with "God has made us real people", so in the absence of any evidence on your side I'll agree to disagree on that one.

Sorry to be a grump.

DDHvi wrote:There doesn't seem to be a thread for this, and I don't want to start a new one, so here is a "force fit."

http://townhall.com/columnists/pauldrie ... n-n1960093

England’s winter death rate this year is almost one-third higher than normal: nearly 29,000 deaths in a two-week period in January, largely because people can no longer afford to heat their homes properly, due to UK climate policies.

It is too bad that so many people don't truly understand that evidence should ALWAYS trump theory. The trouble is that it takes work and humility to apply this pattern.

God has made us real people, in a real universe, with real choices, that have real consequences; and sometimes our choices have effects on other people, such as the 29,000 mentioned above.

We may not be able to do anything about the weather, but:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/e ... mmary.html

For example: the information on California, combined with the amount of vegetables produced there, has us increasing the size of our garden.

Sometimes, when you see something coming, you can duck.

Daryl wrote:Finally each to his own, but I disagree with "God has made us real people", so in the absence of any evidence on your side I'll agree to disagree on that one.

(Bolding mine)

So... you're saying that you're a fake?

The current cold front has probably killed the apple tree's flower buds, if so, no crop this year. In southern ND this happens roughly every other year.

OTOH, only cold tolerant vegetables have been transplanted out so far. In spite of the snow, most of them should survive.

Vive El Jardins. Gardening is one thing that has a chance to be useful no matter what society does. However, I recall the cartoon where the man said to the kid, "I've burned your neighborhood and looted your stores so you can have a more just society. Your thanks will be accepted." When that kind of person gets hungry, they are will eat the seed corn.

Too many people have a magical view of the economy - you just wave your hands, say a few special words, and the goods appear. Only God can make something from nothing.

Good production or distribution methods aren't accidental.

Coming originally from a farming background I'm amused by the Honorverse discussions on how blockaded planets could quickly ramp up food production.
Takes time to grow, and that's after setting up the ground and the support infrastructure. Two sustenance crops - potato and maize take 15 to 20 weeks from planting to harvesting, and you need seed stock plus farming equipment as well as prepared land or hydroponics.
Feeding billions without the infrastructure in place would not be easy.

HB of CJ wrote:One reason why I moved from the Central Valley of Kommiefornika, (California) to SW Oregon, USA, was to escape most if not all of the silly, made up, stupid, dumb, restrictive, rules, laws and regulations. I mostly succeeded. Josephine County gov has little tax base.

Too little for me. You guys pass your bond measure so there can be night policing again? I worry about my uncle whose getting on in years living in a rural area outside grants pass. SW Oregon, like my home Douglas County, took way too long to adjust their budgets after changes in federal timber policy.

And honestly the rules/regs may have had a point at sometime, but too often there was specific situation it was designed to deal with, that may not be around. Or there was tin pot dictator of a HOA. Otoh, Josephine has such a low budget because it was a traditionally seeking rents on federal timberlands, and didn't adjust once of the timber adjustment payments ended.

The big thing I'd do in the right part of Josephine county though is microhydro. Small scale holding ponds on dams with small generators. But that depends on your neighbors and water sources.