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My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.

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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by wastedfly   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:12 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:The stress of a gun firing on a platform is transferred through the air frame to the support,


After that whopper, who needs to read the rest of what you wrote?

Recoil is a Force x TIME = impulse = Delta moment of inertia not stress. How much mass is being moved in a different direction? Depends on the aircraft. Lets ignore deformation/deflection even though we all know a lot of said energy will be absorbed in this fashion.

So, initial mass moment of inertia helo plus delta MMI(mass moment of inertia) will then equate a delta MMI to the rotor system which has its own initial MMI. Lets look at said system. Is it rigid? Nope, not at all. Giant floppy blades, but I said I was going to ignore deflection so... ;)

Does the helo have to stay level? No, what happens is that the helo will move in the direction of the "dip" caused by said delta MMI vector. So the delta MMI delta change of aircraft will be the MMI transferred to rotor is ENTIRELY dependent on how much MASS the aircraft in question weighs minus vibration damping(heat+singing). OF course you have control feedback loops depending on HOW LONG the impulse duration impinges upon the craft.

If it was firing continuously then the engineering problem would relegate back to the need of keeping said helo hovering instead of slightly spinning(sliding[FOV]). There will always be some moment induced. How much depends entirely on the mass of the aircraft, burst duration(impulse imparted), rigidity of the structure(craft+blades), CG distance from rotor system(lift) of said impulse, and finally, rotor shaft diameter and its tolerance for this new strain creating ultimately an additional stress.

What is a typical helo's delta rate of rotational change for normal flight said rotor system endures fatigue Million life cycle point? Hmm? I have not personally seen this side of fatigue analysis as I have only worked on airplanes and their fatigue analysis, but I would be shocked if this rotation point is not mandated at 1 +++million+++ cycles as the rotor will be spinning at 120ish RPM on a BIG bird even at idle(vibrations from wind gusts alone sitting on the tarmac at idle). So each maneuver under normal conditions will require the shaft in question to undergo an enormous number of cycles in short order. So, in hover or direct flight, firing a gun, this additional fatigue induced strain will not even become a blip on the fatigue rotor mast head in comparison to normal flight ops.

Obviously, all things can be taken to the extreme where the MMI of the aircraft is << MMI of the gun continuously firing. Lets not be absurd though.

Long way of saying: You ain't a mechanical engineer.

If you are, do yourself the favor of rough WAG MMI calc with the GAU 8 20,000lb force for 1s burst to a 20,000lb helo with a rotor mass 50 inches from the CG. Assume the rotors are rigid. Assume helo under normal flight ops have rotor rated at infinite stress duty cycle for a rate of change in its MMI of 30 degrees/second(big helo) and rotor spin rate of 200RPM. A HUEY is around 300-400RPM, but obviously is a tiny helo, so... Lets go with Chinook style. Hmm think Ch-46/47 is around 300RPM as well. Call the rotor in question 1000lbs with a radius of 30 feet. In either case, doesn't really matter. So, compare MMI from gun compared to MMI induced by normal flight ops. The flight ops are far greater. I would go so far as to say Vastly greater.
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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:02 pm

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For what it's worth, I did once hear someone like Pierre Sprey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Sprey), perhaps PS him very self, mention that the A-10 does have one minor defect...


They didn't bother to test the main gun as to how effective it was until it was too far along in the design or build process. They just picked the most powerful, fastest gun available. It turns out that the A-10's gun is a bit TOO fast, and a bit TOO good.

Hey, I'd be OK with that if I was a ground troopie.

The reason why this is a defect, is that the A-10 goes through more ammunition than it would have needed to kill a Soviet Tank. This means less space for fuel and other supplies. It also means that when the trigger is pulled the center of gravity shifts ever so slightly more than would have been needed (i.e.: as Ammo leaves the drum).

{BTW: The spent shells are returned to the ammo drum and NOT ejected just to try to preserve the center of gravity as much as practical.}

Just adding my 2 cents again...




.
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold as well as the Kau-zhi and Manticore A-B star systems, are at URL:
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by Annachie   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:27 pm

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Wasted, does your summary there include or exclude recoil dampening on the weapon?

Not an engi, just curious.
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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by MaxxQ   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:49 pm

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Ensign Re-read wrote:For what it's worth, I did once hear someone like Pierre Sprey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Sprey), perhaps PS him very self, mention that the A-10 does have one minor defect...


They didn't bother to test the main gun as to how effective it was until it was too far along in the design or build process. They just picked the most powerful, fastest gun available. It turns out that the A-10's gun is a bit TOO fast, and a bit TOO good.

Hey, I'd be OK with that if I was a ground troopie.

The reason why this is a defect, is that the A-10 goes through more ammunition than it would have needed to kill a Soviet Tank. This means less space for fuel and other supplies. It also means that when the trigger is pulled the center of gravity shifts ever so slightly more than would have been needed (i.e.: as Ammo leaves the drum).

{BTW: The spent shells are returned to the ammo drum and NOT ejected just to try to preserve the center of gravity as much as practical.}

Just adding my 2 cents again...




.


Minor quibble...

The A-10's gun may be the most powerful gatling-style cannon carried by a U.S. fighter, but it's definitely not the fastest. It has two rate-of-fire settings: 2000 rounds per minute and 4000 rpm.

The M61-A1 Vulcan 20mm gatling cannon (six barrels, as opposed to the GAU-8 Avenger's seven) has a max ROF of 6000 rpm.

This coming from a former USAF weapons troop (myself) who had to know these things in order to do his job and get promoted.
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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by wastedfly   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:34 am

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Annachie wrote:Wasted, does your summary there include or exclude recoil dampening on the weapon?

Not an engi, just curious.


Damping just takes a force and lengthens the TIME the force is impengend. TOTAL recoil force is the same. Rather damping eliminates the shock to the airframe.

In gatlings guns case, damping would take all those "peaks" of force(gun firing) and makes the force distributed to the airframe more even.

Think of it this way. A fast swinging light hammer is turned into a slower swinging heavier hammer.
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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by wastedfly   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:53 pm

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Ensign Re-read wrote:It also means that when the trigger is pulled the center of gravity shifts ever so slightly more than would have been needed (i.e.: as Ammo leaves the drum).

{BTW: The spent shells are returned to the ammo drum and NOT ejected just to try to preserve the center of gravity as much as practical.}

Just adding my 2 cents again...
.

There is no "need" at all.

Tail heavy is bad.
Makes the aircraft twitchy.
Ultimately.
Yes, crashing is bad. :twisted:
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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by Relax   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:22 pm

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Not sure this is true or not, but A-10 is now set at 4000RPM for its gatling gun from the original 2 speed setting as the pilots found that for tanks by the time the gun had sped up to 4000 RPM they were already off the trigger and there was no need for the 2000RPM setting. The ammo expenditure was the same in other words.
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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:35 pm

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BTW, I just saw this...

From Defense News' "Early Bird Brief":

3. U.S. Air Force Pilots Said Retiring the A-10 Will Put Troops in Danger
(Mandy Smithberger in War is Boring) I can't wait to be relieved of the burdens of close air support," Maj. Gen. James Post, the vice commander of Air Combat Command, allegedly told a collection of officers at a training session in August 2014.


{ The above links to this web page:
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-u- ... ed3c23e807 }




{Note that I have not read it, and make no claims about it... Long week at work, I need a nap.}


.
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold as well as the Kau-zhi and Manticore A-B star systems, are at URL:
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
=====
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68506297@N ... 740128635/
=====
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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by MaxxQ   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:15 pm

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Relax wrote:Not sure this is true or not, but A-10 is now set at 4000RPM for its gatling gun from the original 2 speed setting as the pilots found that for tanks by the time the gun had sped up to 4000 RPM they were already off the trigger and there was no need for the 2000RPM setting. The ammo expenditure was the same in other words.


Quite possible. My info on it was from when I was in from 1984-1991.
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Re: My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.
Post by wastedfly   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:19 pm

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Reality is already here for steerable bullets. Germans have them on their ships already. Dropping RPG's out of the sky from tanks. Reality is already here for IR to see 20miles in good weather and 10+ in putrid weather. Reality dictates high speed is dead due to IR detection.

Reality should indicate a semi-turreted GUN on aircraft. Turret gun on aircraft will dictate low speed highly maneuverable aircraft or transonic aircraft.

Long live the B-52? The 21st century fighter :lol:
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