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IANS Hellbarde

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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by Theemile   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:45 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Theemile wrote:We got a window into the source of this "Jingoism" when the Emperor's cousin took over the 5th Fleet sector Fleet from the previous fleet admiral. That admiral (who's name escapes me and is really unimportant) was part of a group of industrialists and military who wanted to push the Andermani interests faster than the Emperor was pursuing them. The Emperor saw the big picture and was slowly pushing Manticore out of Silesia "organically".

However, the rash Admiral encouraged brash behavior by subordinates, and (between the Epps destruction and other engagements) forced the Emperor's hand to change tactics. Only Honor's visit to the Fleet base, along with news that both empires both had bigger issues to worry about, allowed the Emperor to change back to his previous strategy. Otherwise, a state of war would soon have existed between Manticore and the Andermani - pretty much because the Emperor could not have been seen losing control of the navy.



Keep in mind that the Andermandi provocations occurred at a time when Haven was perceived to not be a serious threat to Manticore and the IAN had SD(P)s under construction.


So true - But the Emperor wanted political pressure on Manticore, not an overt war - which the admiral was making. Besides all this happened BEFORE the SD(p)s were ready in mass.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by kzt   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:55 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Keep in mind that the Andermandi provocations occurred at a time when Haven was perceived to not be a serious threat to Manticore and the IAN had SD(P)s under construction.

That’s why High Ridges CNO quit, right? Due to the low threat?
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:22 pm

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kzt wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Keep in mind that the Andermandi provocations occurred at a time when Haven was perceived to not be a serious threat to Manticore and the IAN had SD(P)s under construction.

That’s why High Ridges CNO quit, right? Due to the low threat?



I suspect that Haven's SD(P)s were as unexpected to the Andermandi as to Manticore. When they were revealed, the prospect of renewed hostilities could be expected to prevent the SEM from going to war with the IAN over harrassment of a cruiser. The Andi Captain seemed to have overstepped his mission orders, hence Admiral Harrington's diplomatic mission to the local IAN fleet base.
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by cthia   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:29 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:This is where the rubber meets the road. The Jessica Epps was sacrificed to a rogue element—jealous Andermani officerisms. Under any other circumstances, certainly in time of peace, the RMN would have taken the Andermani to task for the unnecessary destruction of the Jessica Epps. With so many fires burning, the RMN simply couldn't afford to do what it normally would have -- indeed should have -- in response to her unprovoked destruction. Byngitis is a space born illness.

We got a window into the source of this "Jingoism" when the Emperor's cousin took over the 5th Fleet sector Fleet from the previous fleet admiral. That admiral (who's name escapes me and is really unimportant) was part of a group of industrialists and military who wanted to push the Andermani interests faster than the Emperor was pursuing them. The Emperor saw the big picture and was slowly pushing Manticore out of Silesia "organically".

However, the rash Admiral encouraged brash behavior by subordinates, and (between the Epps destruction and other engagements) forced the Emperor's hand to change tactics. Only Honor's visit to the Fleet base, along with news that both empires both had bigger issues to worry about, allowed the Emperor to change back to his previous strategy. Otherwise, a state of war would soon have existed between Manticore and the Andermani - pretty much because the Emperor could not have been seen losing control of the navy.

Thanks for the reminder Theemile. Now that you've mentioned it, I recall that. It is exactly the fact that both empires had bigger fish to fry which allowed the Andermani to escape with a "bye" that week of tournament play. Escaped by the hair of their chinny chin chin. I was really shocked and annoyed that Honor took the needless loss of Jessica Epps so calmly. Had Jessica Epps been one of her own, I don't think it would gave gone down quite so smoothly with Honor.

Spoken frankly, the Jessica Epps is a victim of politics. The Empire should have at least paid reparations, but to do so would mean admitting culpability -- opening a can-o-worms. The final disposition sweeping the whole thing under the rug with the agreement that both Captains were probably at fault, stinks worse than Houseman's excrement.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by kzt   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:02 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:That’s why High Ridges CNO quit, right? Due to the low threat?



I suspect that Haven's SD(P)s were as unexpected to the Andermandi as to Manticore. When they were revealed, the prospect of renewed hostilities could be expected to prevent the SEM from going to war with the IAN over harrassment of a cruiser. The Andi Captain seemed to have overstepped his mission orders, hence Admiral Harrington's diplomatic mission to the local IAN fleet base.[/quote]
Iirc, he quit because the correlation of forces was getting worse and the High Ridge government wouldn’t concede what was needed to keep the IAN from getting rambunctious and crushing the RMN assets in Silesia like a bug. He offered two different alternatives he needed, they refused to do either so he dropped his stars on the desk and walked out.
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by kzt   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:29 pm

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WoH, Chapter 48

"Edward, I think we need to seriously consider further reinforcing Sidemore."
"Out of the question!" Janacek snapped, and glowered at Admiral Chakrabarti, wondering just what the First Space Lord had heard about his "interview" with White Haven.
Chakrabarti only looked back at him levelly, and Janacek threw his hands up.
"Just where do you propose we find those reinforcements?" he demanded. "Especially after the note we just sent off to Pritchart? If she and Theisman are stupid enough to break off negotiations after they get it, we're going to need every hull we've got a lot closer to home than Silesia!"
"In that case," Chakrabarti said, "I think we need to draft new instructions for Duchess Harrington."
"What sort of 'new instructions'?" Janacek growled.
"Instructions to give the Andermani whatever the hell they want!" Chakrabarti shot back with highly unusual asperity.
"What?" Janacek stared at him in disbelief.
"I've been rereading Sternhafen's version of what happened in Zoraster," Chakrabarti told him. "It's obvious that it's a total fabrication. And his official rejection of Harrington's offer of the joint investigation is more of the same. In my opinion, the Empire's clearly setting the stage for it to demand major territorial concessions in Silesia. I believe the Emperor is prepared to go so far as risking open conflict with the Star Kingdom in order to get those concessions and that he's using this incident to bludgeon us into acquiescing rather than risk still further escalations in the level of confrontation. In fact, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the rising tensions between us and the Republic are leading him to deduce—correctly, as it happens—that we're not in a position to reinforce Sidemore."
"But according to everything Francis has been able to dig up, the Andies are still redeploying," Janacek protested.
"With all due respect for Francis," Chakrabarti said in a not particularly respectful tone, "I think he's wrong. Or, rather, I think the Andies are probably a lot further along in their redeployment than he's been assuming. It's the only explanation I can see for the way Sternhafen jumped on this Zoraster Incident. And then there's this entire Hecate affair. I know," he waved a hand in the air. "Francis believes the whole thing was intended as a diversionary effort. Maybe it was, but maybe it wasn't, either. Whatever the Republic might be up to, however, doesn't change the situation where the Andies are concerned. Except, of course, that if Harrington's right, and there is a Havenite fleet screwing around out there, then the threat situation is even worse.
"I reiterate, Edward. In my opinion as First Space Lord, we either have to reinforce Sidemore significantly, or else we have to draft new instructions for the station commander, reducing the scope of what we expect her to do with the forces she has."
"I don't think that's politically possible," Janacek said slowly. "Not right now. Not when we're already in such a delicate position with the Republic. Even if it's not exactly what Theisman has been trying to convince us to do, it would be too great a concession of weakness."
"It would be an admission of reality," Chakrabarti replied crisply.
"No, it's out of the question," Janacek said firmly.
"In that case," Chakrabarti said, "I see no option but to tender my resignation as First Space Lord."
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by Daryl   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:45 pm

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Both were British built, and reasonably modern at their respective times. Both wrecks have been found.
TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Daryl wrote:Knowing of RFC's encyclopedic knowledge of wet naval warfare I wonder if this incident was influenced by two engagements by different cruisers with the same name in WW1 and WW2. Both light cruisers and Australian. HMAS Australia 1 and 2.
In WW1, HMAS Sydney (1) met up with the German light cruiser Embden, and defeated it driving it to beach. As should be expected from the relative ship's strengths.
In WW2, HMAS Sydney (2) met up with the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran, which used subterfuge (pretending to be a Dutch merchantman) to lure the Sydney in close then attacked without warning. Both ships were lost, the element of surprise compensating for inferior war fighting equipment.



I recall that Australia actually built some cruisers. Were either of these home builds?
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by Fox2!   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:30 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Daryl wrote:Knowing of RFC's encyclopedic knowledge of wet naval warfare I wonder if this incident was influenced by two engagements by different cruisers with the same name in WW1 and WW2. Both light cruisers and Australian. HMAS Australia 1 and 2.
In WW1, HMAS Sydney (1) met up with the German light cruiser Embden, and defeated it driving it to beach. As should be expected from the relative ship's strengths.
In WW2, HMAS Sydney (2) met up with the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran, which used subterfuge (pretending to be a Dutch merchantman) to lure the Sydney in close then attacked without warning. Both ships were lost, the element of surprise compensating for inferior war fighting equipment.



I recall that Australia actually built some cruisers. Were either of these home builds?


The first HMAS Sydney was a Chatham subclass RN Town class cruiser, which was commissioned into the RAN in 1913. She was eventually scrapped in 1929.

The second HMAS Sydney was an RN modified Leander class cruiser (also known as the Amphion or Perth subclass) purchased while still on the ways in England (ordered as HMS Phaeton)(The other two ships of the subclass would eventually be purchased by the RAN as well, HMS Amphion/HMAS Perth , and HMS Apollo/HMAS Hobart).

Two Leander class cruisers served with the New Zealand Navy. HMS Leander as HMNZS Leander), and HMS Achilles (of Rio Plata fame) as HMNZS Achilles were commissioned into the RNZN in September 1941. Transferred to the Indian Navy (as HMIS/INS Delhi) after the war, Achilles played her earlier self in the 1950's movie about the battle with Admiral Graf Spee.

Achilles and Leander were loaners, which suggests why they didn't become Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch while flying the Southern Cross.

Apparently, the cruisers Australia built were not considered great successes. Part of that was the inexperience of Oz shipyard workers, wartime supply and labor shortages, will we/won't we funding, etc. They were supposed to essentially be build to print Town variants.
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by Rincewind   » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:44 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Daryl wrote:Knowing of RFC's encyclopedic knowledge of wet naval warfare I wonder if this incident was influenced by two engagements by different cruisers with the same name in WW1 and WW2. Both light cruisers and Australian. HMAS Australia 1 and 2.
In WW1, HMAS Sydney (1) met up with the German light cruiser Embden, and defeated it driving it to beach. As should be expected from the relative ship's strengths.
In WW2, HMAS Sydney (2) met up with the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran, which used subterfuge (pretending to be a Dutch merchantman) to lure the Sydney in close then attacked without warning. Both ships were lost, the element of surprise compensating for inferior war fighting equipment.



I recall that Australia actually built some cruisers. Were either of these home builds?


No, neither of the two cruisers were.

The first Sydney, which was built for the then new Royal Australian Navy, was built at Govan in 1911 & scrapped in 1928. Its most notable deed was the defeat of the SMS Emden at Cocos Island in 1914, the Royal Australian Navy's first victory.

The second Sydney, a modified Leander-class light cruiser, was originally being built as HMS Phaeton at Swan Hunters for the Royal Navy. However the Australian Government acquired her and her two sisters. There was some opposition at the time to the purchase, it being said that a cruiser should have been built in Australia. However, with war imminent and the ship practically complete;(as well as the other two already being in service), it was decided to go ahead and purchase them: (Another reason was that a previous cruiser built in Australia, HMAS Adelaide, had taken seven years to complete- when the normal build time was three years).

Coincidentally, the next two Sydneys were also built overseas and it is only the latest Sydney, a Hobart-class Air Warfare Destroyer, that is being built in Australia, at Osborne.
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by stewart   » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:04 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:"Theemile"]"cthia"]This is where the rubber meets the road. The Jessica Epps was sacrificed to a rogue element—jealous Andermani officerisms. Under any other circumstances, certainly in time of peace, the RMN would have taken the Andermani to task for the unnecessary destruction of the Jessica Epps. With so many fires burning, the RMN simply couldn't afford to do what it normally would have -- indeed should have -- in response to her unprovoked destruction. Byngitis is a space born illness.

We got a window into the source of this "Jingoism" when the Emperor's cousin took over the 5th Fleet sector Fleet from the previous fleet admiral. That admiral (who's name escapes me and is really unimportant) was part of a group of industrialists and military who wanted to push the Andermani interests faster than the Emperor was pursuing them. The Emperor saw the big picture and was slowly pushing Manticore out of Silesia "organically".

However, the rash Admiral encouraged brash behavior by subordinates, and (between the Epps destruction and other engagements) forced the Emperor's hand to change tactics. Only Honor's visit to the Fleet base, along with news that both empires both had bigger issues to worry about, allowed the Emperor to change back to his previous strategy. Otherwise, a state of war would soon have existed between Manticore and the Andermani - pretty much because the Emperor could not have been seen losing control of the navy.[/quote]


Keep in mind that the Andermandi provocations occurred at a time when Haven was perceived to not be a serious threat to Manticore and the IAN had SD(P)s under construction.[/quote]


-----------

AND the Andermani Empire considered it the right time to press its territorial concerns in Selicia.

-- Stewart
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