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IANS Hellbarde

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IANS Hellbarde
Post by Micah   » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:15 am

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Hello All!
I have a quick question: I have been re-listening to the series and I am almost done with War of Honor; I am at the fight between IANS Hellbarde and HMS Jessica Epps and I was curious as to what class the Hellbarde was and besides getting the first salvo off/lucky hit, what made her so powerful? I realize that the IAN had really upgraded their ships/tech, but was it the fact the captains where a little to adversarial?
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:32 am

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If the Wiki is sober today, she was a Heavy Cruiser and her Captain - whose name I always pronounced as Kung Fu Gortz (Kapitän der Sterne Guangfu Gortz) - was a complete an utter asshole with a serious hardon for everything Manticoran.

The Jessica Epps commanded by Erica Ferrero, also a heavy cruiser, was defeated because Erica had her hands tied, trying not to start a war with the Andies, IMO. I suppose the RMN was under a similar USN "Don't fire unless fired upon" mandate.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:15 pm

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cthia wrote:If the Wiki is sober today, she was a Heavy Cruiser and her Captain - whose name I always pronounced as Kung Fu Gortz (Kapitän der Sterne Guangfu Gortz) - was a complete an utter asshole with a serious hardon for everything Manticoran.

The Jessica Epps commanded by Erica Ferrero, also a heavy cruiser, was defeated because Erica had her hands tied, trying not to start a war with the Andies, IMO. I suppose the RMN was under a similar USN "Don't fire unless fired upon" mandate.



Weber makes it extremely obvious that while the Andermandi Empire has fewer systems than the PRH and a smaller economy, the technology base is closer to being a peer with Manticore. I would expect an Andermandi CA to be a very credible threat to a Manticoran CA. The Saganami C would be the only RMN CA that should seriously outclass an IAN CA.

Weber describes the IAN CA as having FTL comm on recon drones, extended range missiles with very high accelleration, and laser hears with extended stand off range. Tough customer.
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by Theemile   » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:17 pm

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Micah wrote:Hello All!
I have a quick question: I have been re-listening to the series and I am almost done with War of Honor; I am at the fight between IANS Hellbarde and HMS Jessica Epps and I was curious as to what class the Hellbarde was and besides getting the first salvo off/lucky hit, what made her so powerful? I realize that the IAN had really upgraded their ships/tech, but was it the fact the captains where a little to adversarial?


The Hellbarde's class was never mentioned, but obviously was significantly newer than anything we were given in the SITS data on the Andermani (which was a partial detail on what was normal in the Andermani OOB in Silesia in 1900-1905, not a good overall view of the Andermani Navy. Like the RMN, Silesia usually got older, smaller IAN ships then because new, powerful ones just were not required)

The Epps was most Likely a Sag-B, and had she been at a war footing, with her remotes out and holding the range open, probably would have taken the Hellbarde handily, even without the missile pods that the RMN has come to rely on. Even after the Hellbarde fired on her in surprise, she still "won" the battle, only to succome to a damaged reactor shortly afterward. With the Hellbarde firing inside it's own missile range, the Epp's 2 biggest advantages are taken from it - it's greater accel (though the Hellbard did have improved comps) and it's extended range missiles. Both of which would normally allow the Epps to choose the battle - something which didn't happen.


However, The Hellbarde would probably be more than a match for a Star Knight or a Sag-A. Don't forget, a Sag-B has ER missiles, 19 missile broadsides, Bow & Stern walls, 120 degree offbore firing, and extended range CMs. I doubt an IAN CA in 1919 had all that, but it probably could have taken a classic 14 missile salvo from a Sag-A. So speaking totally from WAG, I'd call the 1919 Hellbarde just above a 1916 Sag-A in punching weight (at most). Against a 1921 Sag-A, with Mk 13 XLs, the Sag-A would probably be on top. (But the IAN might have this missile tech also in 1921)

Hopefully we'll get a better look at the class in the next compendium. Personally, I can't wait.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by Daryl   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:25 am

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Knowing of RFC's encyclopedic knowledge of wet naval warfare I wonder if this incident was influenced by two engagements by different cruisers with the same name in WW1 and WW2. Both light cruisers and Australian. HMAS Australia 1 and 2.
In WW1, HMAS Sydney (1) met up with the German light cruiser Embden, and defeated it driving it to beach. As should be expected from the relative ship's strengths.
In WW2, HMAS Sydney (2) met up with the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran, which used subterfuge (pretending to be a Dutch merchantman) to lure the Sydney in close then attacked without warning. Both ships were lost, the element of surprise compensating for inferior war fighting equipment.
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by kzt   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:54 am

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I’m pretty sure they found the wreck of the Sidney a few years ago. I think the other ship was found too.
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:01 am

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Daryl wrote:Knowing of RFC's encyclopedic knowledge of wet naval warfare I wonder if this incident was influenced by two engagements by different cruisers with the same name in WW1 and WW2. Both light cruisers and Australian. HMAS Australia 1 and 2.
In WW1, HMAS Sydney (1) met up with the German light cruiser Embden, and defeated it driving it to beach. As should be expected from the relative ship's strengths.
In WW2, HMAS Sydney (2) met up with the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran, which used subterfuge (pretending to be a Dutch merchantman) to lure the Sydney in close then attacked without warning. Both ships were lost, the element of surprise compensating for inferior war fighting equipment.



I recall that Australia actually built some cruisers. Were either of these home builds?
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by cthia   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:33 am

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This is where the rubber meets the road.

The Jessica Epps was sacrificed to a rogue element—jealous Andermani officerisms. Under any other circumstances, certainly in time of peace, the RMN would have taken the Andermani to task for the unnecessary destruction of the Jessica Epps. With so many fires burning, the RMN simply couldn't afford to do what it normally would have -- indeed should have -- in response to her unprovoked destruction. Byngitis is a space born illness.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by Theemile   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:42 am

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cthia wrote:This is where the rubber meets the road. The Jessica Epps was sacrificed to a rogue element—jealous Andermani officerisms. Under any other circumstances, certainly in time of peace, the RMN would have taken the Andermani to task for the unnecessary destruction of the Jessica Epps. With so many fires burning, the RMN simply couldn't afford to do what it normally would have -- indeed should have -- in response to her unprovoked destruction. Byngitis is a space born illness.

We got a window into the source of this "Jingoism" when the Emperor's cousin took over the 5th Fleet sector Fleet from the previous fleet admiral. That admiral (who's name escapes me and is really unimportant) was part of a group of industrialists and military who wanted to push the Andermani interests faster than the Emperor was pursuing them. The Emperor saw the big picture and was slowly pushing Manticore out of Silesia "organically".

However, the rash Admiral encouraged brash behavior by subordinates, and (between the Epps destruction and other engagements) forced the Emperor's hand to change tactics. Only Honor's visit to the Fleet base, along with news that both empires both had bigger issues to worry about, allowed the Emperor to change back to his previous strategy. Otherwise, a state of war would soon have existed between Manticore and the Andermani - pretty much because the Emperor could not have been seen losing control of the navy.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: IANS Hellbarde
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:58 am

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:This is where the rubber meets the road. The Jessica Epps was sacrificed to a rogue element—jealous Andermani officerisms. Under any other circumstances, certainly in time of peace, the RMN would have taken the Andermani to task for the unnecessary destruction of the Jessica Epps. With so many fires burning, the RMN simply couldn't afford to do what it normally would have -- indeed should have -- in response to her unprovoked destruction. Byngitis is a space born illness.

We got a window into the source of this "Jingoism" when the Emperor's cousin took over the 5th Fleet sector Fleet from the previous fleet admiral. That admiral (who's name escapes me and is really unimportant) was part of a group of industrialists and military who wanted to push the Andermani interests faster than the Emperor was pursuing them. The Emperor saw the big picture and was slowly pushing Manticore out of Silesia "organically".

However, the rash Admiral encouraged brash behavior by subordinates, and (between the Epps destruction and other engagements) forced the Emperor's hand to change tactics. Only Honor's visit to the Fleet base, along with news that both empires both had bigger issues to worry about, allowed the Emperor to change back to his previous strategy. Otherwise, a state of war would soon have existed between Manticore and the Andermani - pretty much because the Emperor could not have been seen losing control of the navy.



Keep in mind that the Andermandi provocations occurred at a time when Haven was perceived to not be a serious threat to Manticore and the IAN had SD(P)s under construction.
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