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Battle of Spindle

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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by kzt   » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:58 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:To be fair, the SLN missiles were in a ballistic phase when any wedge could have destroyed them and the salvo of missiles were aimed at the SLN ships, so the RMN accomplished a two for the price of one piece of economy.

kzt wrote:Except the geometry doesn't work. It's another magic solution.

Please explain how the geometry does not work. Naively I would expect that the track for a missile going from the SLN to the RMN ship, could also be used as the track of a missile going from the RMN to the SLN ship. By using the reciprocal course the RMN missile wedge kills the SLN missile, since the RMN missile can be powered the entire distance (unlike that of the SLN).

So missiles without special guidance by an insane tactical team need to be oriented such that each missile nose (which has the sensors) is pointed at the target and the the tail (which has the guidance transmitters and receivers) needs to be pointed vaguely at the launching vessel.

In addition the missiles need to be at least 20km apart as they have a 10km diameter wedge.

So to do this the default arrangement of the missiles will be a flat plane perpendicular to the target.

I don’t have the burn-out velocity handy, but it’s moving at a something over 25,000 km sec.

To engage more than one missile you have to approach the flat plane from the sides. Now the first question is “how do you do this, given that the mk23s seems launched from generally in front?”

Assuming you can do this, the next question is “how long will the mk23s be in the 10km wide path through the formation?” We’ll assume they are moving laterally at the same 25,000 km/sec velocity and with zero velocity towards the SLN ships. So at 25,000km sec velocity across the formation they have 1/2500 of a second. During which the Mk23 will move 10km across the formation.

So each Mk23 can kill exactly one missile.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:11 am

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(a critique of Barricade in Chapter 72 of _Shadow of Victory_)

kzt wrote:So missiles without special guidance by an insane tactical team need to be oriented such that each missile nose (which has the sensors) is pointed at the target and the the tail (which has the guidance transmitters and receivers) needs to be pointed vaguely at the launching vessel.

In addition the missiles need to be at least 20km apart as they have a 10km diameter wedge.

So to do this the default arrangement of the missiles will be a flat plane perpendicular to the target.

I don’t have the burn-out velocity handy, but it’s moving at a something over 25,000 km sec.

To engage more than one missile you have to approach the flat plane from the sides. Now the first question is “how do you do this, given that the mk23s seems launched from generally in front?”

Assuming you can do this, the next question is “how long will the mk23s be in the 10km wide path through the formation?” We’ll assume they are moving laterally at the same 25,000 km/sec velocity and with zero velocity towards the SLN ships. So at 25,000km sec velocity across the formation they have 1/2500 of a second. During which the Mk23 will move 10km across the formation.

So each Mk23 can kill exactly one missile.


Ah, but there were 8 SLN battlecruisers firing missiles from pods. Wouldn't that result in 8 planes of missiles, which means that each MK23 could kill one missile from each plane, thus 8 missiles each?
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by kzt   » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:04 am

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Maybe. At best you get one or two per pattern.

The real situation is that the Mk23 is approaching the missile formation from nearly straight ahead, as it's supposed to then attack the SLN ships. It's racing through the formation at probably around 0.2c, so there isn't really a lot of time to try to play fancy tricks. And given how they fired the patterns are probably all roughly at the same range from the SLN ships. So it's the problem of 'how does an ice pick stabbing into the table hit more then one of the 8 postage stamps on the table in a single blow?'

Answer is you don't. Unless someone is an idiot and manually stacked them. But since this blinds 87% of the missiles from the target and prevents all the missiles that can see the target from getting guidance from the tactical section this would require a special kind of stupid.

The automatic programing of the missiles is NEVER going to produce this, as missiles that can't see the target can't find the target to attack and without guidance from the launching ships tactical section the ones that could see the target probably still can't find the target due to the limited sensors on missiles. This is what David refers to as the myopic sensors of missiles.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Theemile   » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:07 pm

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:(a critique of Barricade in Chapter 72 of _Shadow of Victory_)

kzt wrote:So missiles without special guidance by an insane tactical team need to be oriented such that each missile nose (which has the sensors) is pointed at the target and the the tail (which has the guidance transmitters and receivers) needs to be pointed vaguely at the launching vessel.

In addition the missiles need to be at least 20km apart as they have a 10km diameter wedge.

So to do this the default arrangement of the missiles will be a flat plane perpendicular to the target.

I don’t have the burn-out velocity handy, but it’s moving at a something over 25,000 km sec.

To engage more than one missile you have to approach the flat plane from the sides. Now the first question is “how do you do this, given that the mk23s seems launched from generally in front?”

Assuming you can do this, the next question is “how long will the mk23s be in the 10km wide path through the formation?” We’ll assume they are moving laterally at the same 25,000 km/sec velocity and with zero velocity towards the SLN ships. So at 25,000km sec velocity across the formation they have 1/2500 of a second. During which the Mk23 will move 10km across the formation.

So each Mk23 can kill exactly one missile.


Ah, but there were 8 SLN battlecruisers firing missiles from pods. Wouldn't that result in 8 planes of missiles, which means that each MK23 could kill one missile from each plane, thus 8 missiles each?



The problem is the planes cannot be exactly behind or in front of another of the planes - doing so has a high probability of either blinding the sensors OR blinding the communications hardware with the wedge behind and in front of any plane. The separate salvo groups tend to flare out tangential to the Attacker-Target axis to avoid gunsmoke issues.

Also, with the wedge down we are no longer discussing hitting a 10km wide target, we are now discussing hitting a 2 meter wide target - so you need precise hits or else you will fly right through the pattern (which has 20+ km holes).

Really the only way to hit more than 1 target is via missiles fired at an accute angle to the attack missiles - in other words, fired from a 3rd point, between the attacker and the target, firing almost tangentially to the attacker-target axis.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:23 pm

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cthia wrote:
MoH Ch. 22 wrote:The Saganami-C-class heavy cruiser massed four hundred and eighty thousand tons. It mounted forty missile launchers in each broadside, and it had been designed to fire double broadsides at its enemies, then provided with a sixty percent redundancy in control links as a reserve against battle damage. That gave each of Aivars Terekhov's cruisers one hundred and twenty eight telemetry links, and each of those links was assigned to one Mark 23-E missile, which, in turn, controlled eight standard Mark 23s.

The twelve ships of Cruiser Squadron 94 and Cruiser Division 96.1 fired just over fifteen hundred missile pods at Task Force 496, Solarian League Navy.

* * *

"Estimate twelve thousand—repeat, twelve thousand—incoming!"

Sandra Crandall's head snapped around at Ou-yang Zhing-wei's hard, flat announcement. She stared at her ops officer, eyes huge, too shocked by the numbers to register even disbelief. At that, she was doing better than Pépé Bautista. Her chief of staff's expression was that of someone infuriated by a lie rather than someone stupefied by astonishment.
Pardon my bold.

A couple of things. Michelle wanted to test the effectiveness of the SLN systems as she stated. But I always thought that twelve thousand missiles as a first volley didn't exactly accomplish that. Why such a huge first volley? Wouldn't a much smaller volley have resulted in much better intel of SLN systems? And possibly even saved some missiles?

munroburton wrote:Before the battle, it wasn't thought to be that much of an overkill, really. IIRC, they targeted 24 SDs with that salvo, so only ~500 per target. I'm sure they also believed the SLN had better wallers than Haven did, despite any data to the contrary.

Whilst it was a heavy blow, I'm not sure it was overkill by much. Several of the targeted Solarian SDs "survived" as wrecked hulks, requiring search and rescue efforts.

Am I wrong that less than 150 Mark 23s would mission kill a Havenite SD of similar capability back before Haven quadrant warships started taking steroids? And that's with much better defensive systems utilizing an efficient formation allowing mutual ship defense?

Am I also wrong that SLN doctrine did not allow for mutual ship defense? I may be incorrect on that note. At any rate, Michelle stated she wanted to test their analysis on SLN systems which were thought to be sorely lacking. Surely their analysis didn't recommend 500 MK 23s per SD? IINM, they were still using autocannons for point defense at this time. It just seemed like the RMN had a habit of chucking missiles that didn't grow on trees. And Michelle did mention that she wanted to test their systems, I suppose for the next CO on the spot.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Theemile   » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:41 pm

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cthia wrote:
munroburton wrote:Before the battle, it wasn't thought to be that much of an overkill, really. IIRC, they targeted 24 SDs with that salvo, so only ~500 per target. I'm sure they also believed the SLN had better wallers than Haven did, despite any data to the contrary.

Whilst it was a heavy blow, I'm not sure it was overkill by much. Several of the targeted Solarian SDs "survived" as wrecked hulks, requiring search and rescue efforts.

Am I wrong that less than 150 Mark 23s would mission kill a Havenite SD of similar capability back before Haven quadrant warships started taking steroids? And that's with much better defensive systems utilizing an efficient formation allowing mutual ship defense?

Am I also wrong that SLN doctrine did not allow for mutual ship defense? I may be incorrect on that note. At any rate, Michelle stated she wanted to test their analysis on SLN systems which were thought to be sorely lacking. Surely their analysis didn't recommend 500 MK 23s per SD? IINM, they were still using autocannons for point defense at this time. It just seemed like the RMN had a habit of chucking missiles that didn't grow on trees. And Michelle did mention that she wanted to test their systems, I suppose for the next CO on the spot.



1/3rd of the reserve still mounts autocannon - not the active fleet, which is either new or upgraded from the original 275 year old spec.

This was the first interaction with Solarian Wallers and they brought a bunch of them (Even Crandall's screen outnumbered Henke 2:1 in type hulls.) While the Manties thought they knew what the Solarians were capable of, no one was certain. The Manties wanted to make sure no one (on their side) got hurt and they had the missiles to use, so why not show force? It saved the lives of 3/4ths of the Solarian Fleet, and no one came close to energy range.

Besides, in war there is no such thing as overkill.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:46 pm

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Theemile wrote:The problem is the planes cannot be exactly behind or in front of another of the planes - doing so has a high probability of either blinding the sensors OR blinding the communications hardware with the wedge behind and in front of any plane. The separate salvo groups tend to flare out tangential to the Attacker-Target axis to avoid gunsmoke issues.

Also, with the wedge down we are no longer discussing hitting a 10km wide target, we are now discussing hitting a 2 meter wide target - so you need precise hits or else you will fly right through the pattern (which has 20+ km holes).

Really the only way to hit more than 1 target is via missiles fired at an accute angle to the attack missiles - in other words, fired from a 3rd point, between the attacker and the target, firing almost tangentially to the attacker-target axis.

But you are not trying to strike one missile with another; only the ballistic missile with the wedge of an active one. So you only have to be precise to within 5km and you should not need to shoot tangentially to the attacker-target axis.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:16 pm

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cthia wrote:
munroburton wrote:Before the battle, it wasn't thought to be that much of an overkill, really. IIRC, they targeted 24 SDs with that salvo, so only ~500 per target. I'm sure they also believed the SLN had better wallers than Haven did, despite any data to the contrary.

Whilst it was a heavy blow, I'm not sure it was overkill by much. Several of the targeted Solarian SDs "survived" as wrecked hulks, requiring search and rescue efforts.

Am I wrong that less than 150 Mark 23s would mission kill a Havenite SD of similar capability back before Haven quadrant warships started taking steroids? And that's with much better defensive systems utilizing an efficient formation allowing mutual ship defense?

Am I also wrong that SLN doctrine did not allow for mutual ship defense? I may be incorrect on that note. At any rate, Michelle stated she wanted to test their analysis on SLN systems which were thought to be sorely lacking. Surely their analysis didn't recommend 500 MK 23s per SD? IINM, they were still using autocannons for point defense at this time. It just seemed like the RMN had a habit of chucking missiles that didn't grow on trees. And Michelle did mention that she wanted to test their systems, I suppose for the next CO on the spot.

Theemile wrote:1/3rd of the reserve still mounts autocannon - not the active fleet, which is either new or upgraded from the original 275 year old spec.

This was the first interaction with Solarian Wallers and they brought a bunch of them (Even Crandall's screen outnumbered Henke 2:1 in type hulls.) While the Manties thought they knew what the Solarians were capable of, no one was certain. The Manties wanted to make sure no one (on their side) got hurt and they had the missiles to use, so why not show force? It saved the lives of 3/4ths of the Solarian Fleet, and no one came close to energy range.

Besides, in war there is no such thing as overkill.

There's no such thing as overkill unless there's a shortage of missiles, that is. Which of course Michelle couldn't have known would eventually become a problem, granted. However, considering the cost of missiles, the Exchequer needs to have a little discussion with the masses about "conservation of momentum," no matter what Honor says. The RMN was accustomed to wasting lots of missiles, oftentimes in demonstration salvos.

I don't have a problem with a show of force. Ultimately, I wouldn't really have a problem with the 12K missiles had Michelle not stated she wanted to test the waters. They could always have launched the same salvo as a follow up if need be. Solarian lives probably were saved as a result, but Henke wasn't exactly in a caring mood for Solly lives at the time, hence the plan "the gloves come off." The very fact that this was a first encounter with SL wallers meant the RMN needed much needed data on waller capabilities. I don't know what kind of finely tuned tactical data she achieved from this encounter to pass along to that hapless CO without a shitload err shipload of missiles and pods to spare. There was plenty of time for several launches.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:33 pm

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Theemile wrote:1/3rd of the reserve still mounts autocannon - not the active fleet, which is either new or upgraded from the original 275 year old spec.

A question just occurred to me: If the missile were equipped with a particle shield, then wouldn't an auto-cannon be ineffective? Frankly, even in the age of contact explosives, I would not expect an auto-cannon to be as effective as a defensive laser array. Given that energy weapons were the main armament at the time, then why use guns?
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Theemile   » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:02 pm

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tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:The problem is the planes cannot be exactly behind or in front of another of the planes - doing so has a high probability of either blinding the sensors OR blinding the communications hardware with the wedge behind and in front of any plane. The separate salvo groups tend to flare out tangential to the Attacker-Target axis to avoid gunsmoke issues.

Also, with the wedge down we are no longer discussing hitting a 10km wide target, we are now discussing hitting a 2 meter wide target - so you need precise hits or else you will fly right through the pattern (which has 20+ km holes).

Really the only way to hit more than 1 target is via missiles fired at an accute angle to the attack missiles - in other words, fired from a 3rd point, between the attacker and the target, firing almost tangentially to the attacker-target axis.

But you are not trying to strike one missile with another; only the ballistic missile with the wedge of an active one. So you only have to be precise to within 5km and you should not need to shoot tangentially to the attacker-target axis.


to hit a single target, you do not need to be nearly tangential to the axis, but to strike more than 1 you do.

To hit the passive missile body, you need to hit it on your wedge. It is possible for the body to pass into the 5km wide open maw of the wedge and be missed. I'm just pointing out that while you still have alot of wedge to swat the passive missiles with, it is orders of magnitude more difficult than hitting the 10 km wide wedge of another active missile.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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