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Battle of Spindle

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:09 pm

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Relax wrote:So, unless they are coming RIGHT DOWN your throat allowing you a DOWN THEIR throat shot, or up their kilt, ramming is for all practical purposes utterly impossible...

Now add the fact that the sidewalls SEEM to go 10km from ship ALL THE WAY to the wedge edge. So, angle of down the throat must be VERY close to 0,0,0 with only a variation at most of ~3 degrees. Any swing of enemy wedge and ... :lol:

Ramming outside of a down sidewall for reality purposes is impossible.


If you get a down the throat shot, good, but I wouldn't expect it. The reason I see to give them a ramming mode is the sidewalls. Yes, they can be blocked by turning the wedge--but that same action means the ship's defenses can't engage the inbound missiles.

I see a ramming potential not as something likely to happen, but a very serious keep-your-head-down system. It's akin to covering fire while the rest of your troops advance.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:29 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Relax wrote:So, unless they are coming RIGHT DOWN your throat allowing you a DOWN THEIR throat shot, or up their kilt, ramming is for all practical purposes utterly impossible...

Now add the fact that the sidewalls SEEM to go 10km from ship ALL THE WAY to the wedge edge. So, angle of down the throat must be VERY close to 0,0,0 with only a variation at most of ~3 degrees. Any swing of enemy wedge and ... :lol:

Ramming outside of a down sidewall for reality purposes is impossible.


If you get a down the throat shot, good, but I wouldn't expect it. The reason I see to give them a ramming mode is the sidewalls. Yes, they can be blocked by turning the wedge--but that same action means the ship's defenses can't engage the inbound missiles.

I see a ramming potential not as something likely to happen, but a very serious keep-your-head-down system. It's akin to covering fire while the rest of your troops advance.

But remember, the 23-Es are working in tandem like a pride of lions herding prey, making its own opportunities . . .

"Attack plan Alpha, we'll go with PANTS DOWN at 70 million kilometers."

An unforeseen advantage an MK 23-E has is that it's tied into a control net with other MK 23-Es. What that means tactically, is that an MK 23-E can deduce where an enemy ship may attempt to maneuver, because it knows the exact vector of attack of the following broods, thus knows what the most likely vectors are that will be chosen for evasive maneuvers. Like playing fox and geese. Remember, that's a hellishly fiend self-contained brain included at the expense of a warhead. But Project Gram didn't exactly rape the 23-E like Fearless was raped to fit in her new toy.

The 23-E rivals my skills as a quarterback, being able to time itself exactly where the runner will be. Good enough to throw the ball before the runner makes his turn. >HELLO!<

As far as a completed pass, it gives a new meaning to a long bomb.

:idea: Also gives a new meaning to mutually assured destruction.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Relax   » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:53 am

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cthia wrote:But remember, the 23-Es are working in tandem like a pride of lions herding prey,

Suggest example using math... Good Luck

And DW has already said, you cannot turn a missiles sensor away from target without it losing its brains... So, a realistic angle is at best 30 degrees and from forum posts seems to indicate it is MUCH narrower than this in his mind.

Good Luck. Other than a direct chase or head on collision where the enemy is so stupid as to not angle at all, a ramming scenario is impossible.

Math time dude.
_________
Tally Ho!
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:20 am

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The Voyage Home

Kirk : Mr. Spock, have you accounted for the variable mass of whales and water in your time re-entry program?

Spock : Mr. Scott cannot give me exact figures, Admiral, so... I will make a guess.

Kirk : A guess? You, Spock? That's extraordinary.

Spock : [to Dr. McCoy] I don't think he understands.

McCoy : No, Spock. He means that he feels safer about your guesses than most other people's facts.

Spock : Then you're saying...

[pause]

Spock : It is a compliment?

McCoy : It is.

Spock : Ah. Then, I will try to make the best guess I can.

McCoy : Please do.


I wasn't aware that the notion requires high-impact mathematics. If so, you won't get it from me. I've stated long ago in a galaxy near you that I don't do Sci-Fi with a slide rule. Or I'll turn into my sisters who hate the genre, or kzt who hates one of my most favorite selections in the series. If the math doesn't work, what are you going to do as a reader, picket that particular story? What do you do as a fan? Annoy the author? Slide rules only give you info best left alone. Besides, most Sci-Fi authors already fail to pay any taxes on their egregious amounts of pixie dust. The day I reduce Sci-Fi to sitting down and crunching numbers is the day I move on to another genre. Besides, the notion doesn't need high-impact mathematics.

Here are the pertinent Apollo givens . . .

Apollo

It was a remote control node, following along behind the other eight missiles from the same pod,

But its position allowed it to monitor the standard telemetry links from the other missiles of its pod. And it also carried a far more capable AI than any standard attack missile—one capable of processing the data from all of the other missiles' tracking and homing systems and sending the result back to its mothership via grav-pulse.


1. Even before FTL and Apollo, Project Gram managed to give the missiles of the RMN a leg up on Peep missiles by including a very capable AI. The brood of the Apollo control missile aren't exactly lame brains, but very accomplished missiles in their own right. Once upon a time they were being released into the wild in autonomous mode with unprecedented results even before they were given a 23-E as a choir director. They enjoyed attack profiles of their own, surely based on efficient algorithms crunching their own angles of attack. Along with the enemy's present position and vector.

2. Enter Mk 23-Einstein bringing to the party an even more advanced AI, a super computer compared to the brains of the already accomplished brood. It's tracking all of the data from the brood's tracking and homing systems.

SURELY YOU ARE AWARE OF THE ALGORITHMS AND DATA ALREADY BEING CRUNCHED IN THE SYSTEMS OF THE BROOD?

3. We know that Honorverse computers routinely crunch the likely attack vectors of the incoming missiles it's tracking. How else is a CO going to know to bark the order "Evasive Maneuvers Charlie Alpha Tango!" These aren't simply arbitrary evasive maneuvers. In fact, they are so capable in analyzing these particular parameters that they can even decide which particular ship(s) of a formation is likely being targeted.

4. We also know, by Honor's example, that ships calculate the best vectors to engage the enemy. "We'll go with William Tell at fifty million kilometers." William Tell has his own set of profiles - angles of attack, attack pattern, etc.

5. We also know the ships routinely calculate the best defensive orientation against an enemy's incoming missile storm. Heck, Honor was pretty much able to naturally accomplish it in her head during her legendary knife fight. There certainly is lots of math at the heart of denying an enemy ship an up the kilt shot.

6. I'm betting these basic algorithms (basic to a ship's tactical computers, the 23-E and its brood) are an integral part of their programming. Remember, they have the ability to drop down to autonomous mode if the FTL signal is lost -- being able to crunch the same numbers as the Mother Ship.

7. The mothership is sending all of these parameters to the 23-E who in turn is monitoring what the brains of the brood is thinking, sharing that data with other 23-Es and the mothership, and forever fine tuning angles of attack.

8. We know that the 23-E directs the brood. We know that the 23-Es are communicating with each other. Rest assured they're not a bunch of carpoolers discussing the outcome of their kids latest recital. Which brings us to . . .

Relax wrote:And DW has already said, you cannot turn a missiles sensor away from target without it losing its brains... So, a realistic angle is at best 30 degrees and from forum posts seems to indicate it is MUCH narrower than this in his mind.

Good Luck. Other than a direct chase or head on collision where the enemy is so stupid as to not angle at all, a ramming scenario is impossible.

It doesn't matter if a missile loses its brains if the blind is being led by the seeing -- the other (remaining control missiles of the fifteen hundred 23-Es that can see in Henke's salvo who's been cataloguing the data) 23-Es.

>Help me reengage<

>There's a high probability you're going to see an opportunity to reacquire. We have brood's 2, 7, 9, 16, 34, 57 on bogey 9. His only evasive maneuvers will be X, bringing him into your peripheral vision<

>Great, thanks Johnny. If I miss the chance, been great working with you guys<

****** *

"Bones, every 23-E is a "silicon" version of the brain in Spock's head."

"What do you think of that, Spock?"

"Fascinating Jim. And quite a capable lot."

"As always, your modesty is lacking Spock."

"Lacking what, Doctor McCoy? I'm merely calculating the immense capability of fifteen hundred mini me's barreling down on the enemy."

******

The 23-E is receiving refined data from the Mother Ship, fine tuning its own routines in case it loses its FTL signal and has to revert to autonomous mode.

I don't see why an MK 23-E cannot lead another Mk 23-E to the promised land.

Afterword:

Great thinkers have to be able to see these things in their head. Oftentimes, many posters let the math get in their way. It's great if it floats your boat and the number crunching is certainly handy. But Shannon Foraker and Sonja Hemphill has the ability to see things in their head, first! Before kicking it downstairs to the "scutts" to crunch the numbers. Sonja and Shannon are too busy to spend their time in math class. So am I. Hey, Sonja, Shannon, Honor and I have the ability to see things in our head. It's what gets us to the drawing board in the first place. You are welcome and encouraged to crunch the numbers if you like, for you to come to the same conclusion of what is clearly obvious to me.

Heck, the MK 23-E can give a new meaning to "educated guess" especially since its legally copying from the paper of all the other control missile's with the professor's blessings. I suppose that's an open book test?

In closing, I feel safer about an MK 23-Es guess than most other missile's facts. And hey, if some 23-Es miss an opportunity using this tactic, no sweat. If nothing is ventured, nothing is gained.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by kzt   » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:25 pm

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Sorry, no. David postulates really stupid missiles. Like so stupid that they can’t calculate an intercept and execute it without having their sensors constantly on the target. Like so stupid that they don’t talk to each other, much less share sensor data to refine their sensor pictures via interfometry. They are very very dumb and have a very low chance of hitting a target without active control by the launch ship.

Think 1960s-1970s anti-ship missiles. Like the one in the board game Harpoon, which I’m told was David’s mental model of missile combat.

And their are obvious issues with this in the Hororverse. Write your own books if you can’t deal with David’s universe quirks.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:36 pm

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kzt wrote:Sorry, no. David postulates really stupid missiles. Like so stupid that they can’t calculate an intercept and execute it without having their sensors constantly on the target. Like so stupid that they don’t talk to each other, much less share sensor data to refine their sensor pictures via interfometry. They are very very dumb and have a very low chance of hitting a target without active control by the launch ship.

Think 1960s-1970s anti-ship missiles. Like the one in the board game Harpoon, which I’m told was David’s mental model of missile combat.

And their are obvious issues with this in the Hororverse. Write your own books if you can’t deal with David’s universe quirks.

I already deal with David's Universe. I'm not the one who crunches numbers.

Besides, I'm simply postulating from textev.

kzt wrote:Sorry, no. David postulates really stupid missiles.


Yet, textev does NOT postulate really stupid missiles. I wouldn't normally equate "capable AI" with dumb. Would you?


Late Edit:
In fact, to drive the point home. It appears that as far as attack patterns go, the brood seems to have a danger zone. That point when the 23-E/brood recognizes that its position represents a mate in three. That is those times when the missile begins maneuvering for an up the kilt shot, because you've fatally entered the brood's kill zone.

Humor:
What about when one of the brood flunks its test by losing lock. But then reacquires and makes good on the retest.


MC

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by pnakasone   » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:55 am

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One thing is how many times Crandall was offed the chance to send a courier threw the wormhole junction to Earth for instructions and let the diplomats handle the issue?
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Dauntless   » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:33 am

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Kzt, Cthia you are both right.

standard missiles, even Mk 23s are fairly stupid.

the 23E is pretty intelligent, for an honorverse missile, being twice the size of a standard mk 23 missile giving the RMN the needed room for to make this work.

that said i'm not convinced, that the 23E could be used as a rammer after its attack missiles have gone in but I can see why Cthia and others say it could work.

Going to need RFC to weigh in before we can really say yea or nay to the idea.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:05 pm

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23-E, Dazzlers and Dragons Teeth.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the basic missile body (the whole MDM except the "warhead" and communications are the same.
You have the Mk 23 & Mk 23-E which are the Apollo warships and the brood controller. So, given that you typicaly have to get your warheads to a point where they can shoot (from a point where they are often having to go to a point where they are shooting from just beyond where the wedge covers their target, the 23-E needs at least the same capability. Essentialy they have to be able to get, if not beyond the target, then just abreast of it to shoot "just past" where the wedge is providing cover.
The target is going somewhere and is being tracked with that tracking info feed to the birds. All the birds! Why, because it doesn't make any sence for either the Dazzlers or Dragon's Teeth to not be in that wave (or moving front of the pulse of missiles) which is both heading for where the target is projected to be in X time and be able to manuver to adjust for what the target is doing to change directions etc (or acceleration) to avoid being hit.
Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth typicaly intimate the ECM relative to when enemy CM are close to get close enough to interdict your missiles and when they start broadcasting they are close enough to screw up the target ship(s) sensors. So, They are traveling with the missiles with the laser heads, and following instruction such that they are having the same interception requirements because they have to get where the missiles are trying to go at the same time to be effective. Surely the Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth have enough endurance and targeting that they could be flying INTO the target that the warhead shots are supposed to just skirt around to shoot past the wedge.
Not practical, well, what happens if those ECM missiles are comming in on the target and the target is maneuvering, and these are not "spent" ECM birds but live warheads.......the target has little choice but to use either CMs or lightspeed point defense to deal with them.

So the ECM portion of the Dazzlers burn out -because of massive overload to push the disruption out, same with the Dragon's Teeth. Doesn't mean the last drive on the MDM is burned out.
Heck, even if the massive kinetic energy of the no longer broadcasting ECM birds isn't something that can penetrate a sidewall, is that sidewall still going to be there? This is the middle of a battle, ships get damaged, ships maneuver in relation to relation to threats and the geometry of the target's protection may have "changed". Like gaping holes in sidewalls.
Besides, if the target has to presume the incomming missiles- under power- are something that can hurt it, it is going to attempt to kill them. So it's going to expend both CM and light speed point defense doing that and that could reduce their effectiveness on the next volley of missles being sent it's way. Of course, one of those ECM birds might just get through a hole in the target's sidewall and ......boom, massive impact damage from 100 odd tones of missile at some significant fraction of C :)
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:25 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:23-E, Dazzlers and Dragons Teeth.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the basic missile body (the whole MDM except the "warhead" and communications are the same.


The 23-E is much larger than the others.

There is a reason that everyone uses laserhead and not contact missiles -- You can actually hit something useful.
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.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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