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Battle of Spindle

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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:10 pm

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cthia wrote:Hmm, adding Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth to the notion of ramming is delectable. Brilliant! I always wondered what happens to the 23-E but never considered the Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth. Only Tester and Weber knows the total number of orphaned ECM missiles produced by Henke's missile storm that could have sought ramming opportunities. And I'm going to assume that the ECM missiles complete their mission farther away from the target than 23-Es, thus giving them more time to seek and ram. No?


The Dragon's Teeth can still jam so long as there are ships alive and thus I would normally not consider them for ramming. I was including the Dazzlers in the rammers, I would think they are actually more likely to be able to ram than the 23-Es as they are expended several seconds out.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:04 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
cthia wrote:Hmm, adding Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth to the notion of ramming is delectable. Brilliant! I always wondered what happens to the 23-E but never considered the Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth. Only Tester and Weber knows the total number of orphaned ECM missiles produced by Henke's missile storm that could have sought ramming opportunities. And I'm going to assume that the ECM missiles complete their mission farther away from the target than 23-Es, thus giving them more time to seek and ram. No?


The Dragon's Teeth can still jam so long as there are ships alive and thus I would normally not consider them for ramming. I was including the Dazzlers in the rammers, I would think they are actually more likely to be able to ram than the 23-Es as they are expended several seconds out.

Thanks for the correction. I was under the erroneous impression that all ECM spent itself at about the same time having the same power budget. Which should be effective enough even seconds out, because the terminal velocity of the accompanying birds would hardly afford fried, overwhelmed systems time enough to recover. Anyways, thanks.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:56 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:The Dragon's Teeth can still jam so long as there are ships alive and thus I would normally not consider them for ramming. I was including the Dazzlers in the rammers, I would think they are actually more likely to be able to ram than the 23-Es as they are expended several seconds out.

Isn't that backwards?

Dragon's Teeth are decoys, when activated they create lots of fake missile signatures attempting to trick the enemy into wasting defensive fire on those phantoms instead of the actual missiles. Once they pass the enemy force it wouldn't mater if they still appeared to be many missiles as the enemy wouldn't waste fire on missiles that already missed.
So once the laserhead missiles of their salvo have detonated the dragon's teeth are only useful for at most the second or two it takes to cover then final 50,000 km to the target (and that only if the enemy still hasn't figured out they're fake signatures and treats them as possible contact nuke attackers; keeping defensive fire on them instead of redirecting it towards the next incoming salvo) -- so might be candidates to attempt ramming. After all it's not like they can't keep faking missile signatures while trying to run into a decoy, halo platform, or part of a ship not protected by wedge or sidewall.

Dazzlers are the jammers than try to blind enemy sensors and disrupt their data and control links. Those might still be useful for a handful of seconds after passing the enemy (assuming they can keep their emitters focused on the enemy). Though even they will rapidly get too far away to remain effective.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:31 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:The Dragon's Teeth can still jam so long as there are ships alive and thus I would normally not consider them for ramming. I was including the Dazzlers in the rammers, I would think they are actually more likely to be able to ram than the 23-Es as they are expended several seconds out.

Isn't that backwards?

Dragon's Teeth are decoys, when activated they create lots of fake missile signatures attempting to trick the enemy into wasting defensive fire on those phantoms instead of the actual missiles. Once they pass the enemy force it wouldn't mater if they still appeared to be many missiles as the enemy wouldn't waste fire on missiles that already missed.
So once the laserhead missiles of their salvo have detonated the dragon's teeth are only useful for at most the second or two it takes to cover then final 50,000 km to the target (and that only if the enemy still hasn't figured out they're fake signatures and treats them as possible contact nuke attackers; keeping defensive fire on them instead of redirecting it towards the next incoming salvo) -- so might be candidates to attempt ramming. After all it's not like they can't keep faking missile signatures while trying to run into a decoy, halo platform, or part of a ship not protected by wedge or sidewall.

Dazzlers are the jammers than try to blind enemy sensors and disrupt their data and control links. Those might still be useful for a handful of seconds after passing the enemy (assuming they can keep their emitters focused on the enemy). Though even they will rapidly get too far away to remain effective.

As I stated, textev says that one or both (can't remember which) burns out, it's huge power budget spent, before it passes enemy fire I think. Textev is found in SoV, I think. I'll scare it up when I get a chance.

Late edit:
Sheepishly, I now know how the big newspapers feel when they have to print a retraction. That wasn't textev, but wiki-ev . . .

wiki wrote:Dazzlers

The Dazzlers were an electronic warfare system invented by the Royal Manticoran Navy.

It was a sensor jammer of unprecedented power, a burst emitter whose EW warhead burned out within seconds, producing savage strobes of jamming. The result was similar to the pre-space use of chaff to confuse enemy sensors and provide cover for the issuing craft.


And I now realize of course, those seconds could be plenty of time to pass enemy fire depending on when activated.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:04 am

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cthia wrote:As I stated, textev says that one or both (can't remember which) burns out, it's huge power budget spent, before it passes enemy fire I think. Textev is found in SoV, I think. I'll scare it up when I get a chance.

Late edit:
Sheepishly, I now know how the big newspapers feel when they have to print a retraction. That wasn't textev, but wiki-ev . . .

wiki wrote:Dazzlers

The Dazzlers were an electronic warfare system invented by the Royal Manticoran Navy.

It was a sensor jammer of unprecedented power, a burst emitter whose EW warhead burned out within seconds, producing savage strobes of jamming. The result was similar to the pre-space use of chaff to confuse enemy sensors and provide cover for the issuing craft.


And I now realize of course, those seconds could be plenty of time to pass enemy fire depending on when activated.

I think the wiki is talking about the LAC launched Dazzlers which (lacking the micro-fusion power) are burst emitters.
Ashes of Victory wrote:The Dazzlers were an in-your-face, burn-out-your-sensors jammer of unprecedented power. They were burst emitters (no missile a LAC could carry could sustain such power loads for more than a few seconds), but before their EW warheads burned out, they produced savage strobes of jamming.
Though I'm not quickly finding any statement about how long the MDM/DDM Dazzlers can keep jamming. But the text-ev was talking about how long the LAC missile's power could last; not the lifetime of the emitter itself.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:39 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Though I'm not quickly finding any statement about how long the MDM/DDM Dazzlers can keep jamming. But the text-ev was talking about how long the LAC missile's power could last; not the lifetime of the emitter itself.


Just an impreddsiosn, by I think that the duration is rougnly the same, just the intensity changes. Dazzlers don't need long duration, they just need long enough to confuse the deployment of the Dragon's Teeth, and/or scramble sensors.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:22 pm

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Although it would undoubtedly be asking for way too much providence, it'd sure be nice if several spent 23-E's and ECMs can get together on a coordinated gang bang. Several dinosaur killers simultaneously impacting on pretty much the same spot. Darn resourceful neobarbs!

Hmm, on that note. Are weakened sidewalls susceptible to ramming?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Relax   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:41 am

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Due to physics/geometry of battle, ramming is near impossible.

0.8c... ~240,000km/s closing speed...
Stand off attack range 20,000-->50,000km
Acceleration 46,000g
D=0.5*a*t^2
SQRT: 30,000,000m/0.5*46,000*10 = SQRT ~30,000/230
t = 11s
Assumes 90 degrees of acceleration off plane and zero time to rotate onto new heading.

11s x 240,000km/s = ~2.7Mkm from target.

CM envelope for which Dazzlers etc were designed even against RMN ships is 3.5Mkm... Fires up a Million km from start of zone would be my guess. SO.... 4.5Mkm

Havenite CM envelope is 2.5?Mkm so... 3.5Mkm...

Against anyone else? They have ~1Mkm CM envelope.

So, unless they are coming RIGHT DOWN your throat allowing you a DOWN THEIR throat shot, or up their kilt, ramming is for all practical purposes utterly impossible...

Now add the fact that the sidewalls SEEM to go 10km from ship ALL THE WAY to the wedge edge. So, angle of down the throat must be VERY close to 0,0,0 with only a variation at most of ~3 degrees. Any swing of enemy wedge and ... :lol:

Ramming outside of a down sidewall for reality purposes is impossible.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:53 am

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cthia wrote:Hmm, on that note. Are weakened sidewalls susceptible to ramming?


Why the fascination with throwing spitballs at SDs? Dazzlers run until they're melted rubble. Dragon's teeth run until they're targeted or meltdown. Aollo just makes sure that there's nothing to recover -- which doesn't include leaving any possibility of wreckage remaining.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:36 am

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Relax wrote:Due to physics/geometry of battle, ramming is near impossible.

0.8c... ~240,000km/s closing speed...
Stand off attack range 20,000-->50,000km
Acceleration 46,000g
D=0.5*a*t^2
SQRT: 30,000,000m/0.5*46,000*10 = SQRT ~30,000/230
t = 11s
Assumes 90 degrees of acceleration off plane and zero time to rotate onto new heading.

11s x 240,000km/s = ~2.7Mkm from target.

CM envelope for which Dazzlers etc were designed even against RMN ships is 3.5Mkm... Fires up a Million km from start of zone would be my guess. SO.... 4.5Mkm

Havenite CM envelope is 2.5?Mkm so... 3.5Mkm...

Against anyone else? They have ~1Mkm CM envelope.

So, unless they are coming RIGHT DOWN your throat allowing you a DOWN THEIR throat shot, or up their kilt, ramming is for all practical purposes utterly impossible...

Now add the fact that the sidewalls SEEM to go 10km from ship ALL THE WAY to the wedge edge. So, angle of down the throat must be VERY close to 0,0,0 with only a variation at most of ~3 degrees. Any swing of enemy wedge and ... :lol:

Ramming outside of a down sidewall for reality purposes is impossible.

Do you recall any of the fifty-leven movies you've seen where someone shooting at an enemy with a gun runs out of ammo? What do they always instinctively do then, without fail? Throw the darn gun at him! Probably won't do any good, but worth a try anyway; won't harm you for trying. . . and just maybe. (Although an empty gun connecting in the right place can kill.)

Besides, again, this is for the rare situation where the opportunity may present itself, like Barricade. Providence. As well as anything providentially taking up position outside the wedge. Also, providence requires little to no acceleration off-plane. These are the "Well looka what we have here" opportunities that present itself.

And do remember, there is a date with a MAlignant devil sometime in the future. The GA may have to resort to throwing rocks at some point.

Heck, the tactic may be able to destroy/cripple a Streak Boat, or an LD in the act of deploying the Sharks.

I'll even accept that it's a tactic looking for a (targetable) solution.

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Last edited by cthia on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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