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Battle of Spindle

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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Fox2!   » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:31 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Mike took her gloves off in this boxing match. She cheated -- just like her BFF in the ramblings thread. Go figure. LOL

What cheat?


It's up to SLN ONI to provide a proper appreciation of the capabilities of any potential opponent. Mike (and the RMN/GA) have no responsibility to demonstrate the power of the Mk 23 missile system, whether controlled by SD(P)s or "mere" CAs.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by tlb   » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:01 am

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Fox2! wrote:It's up to SLN ONI to provide a proper appreciation of the capabilities of any potential opponent. Mike (and the RMN/GA) have no responsibility to demonstrate the power of the Mk 23 missile system, whether controlled by SD(P)s or "mere" CAs.

They did demonstrate the power of the missile system, but the SLN ONI after action report declared that it was system defense pods tractored to the CAs that produced the damage. Even that should have given them pause: if a cruiser could tow missile pods that could destroyer a SD from long range, then the SLN was already screwed. But they waved their hands and said that the Yawata Strike must have flushed all the defense pods around the Manticore system, so Adm. Filetra should have no problem.

Madness
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:02 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Mike took her gloves off in this boxing match. She cheated -- just like her BFF in the ramblings thread. Go figure. LOL

tlb wrote:What cheat?

TFLYTSNBN wrote: Deploying a squadron of "mere" Saganami C heavy cruisers along with one geriatric DN to defend Spindle while covertly deploying a freighter full of Apollo pods is sneaky.

Not warning Adm Crandal that the Mark 23 missile is designed to ream Haven SDs which have far better missilr defenses and tougher armor than SLN SDs is decrptive.

Not warning Crandal that even without Keyhole 2 to provide FTL fire control, the Apollo control missiles effectively multiply the number of FC control channels by a factor of 8, and Saggy Cs have far more control channels than they ought to, is just plain diabolical.

Not warning Crandal that all of those recon drones provide FTL sensor readings effectively reduce the control time lag by 50% is just evil.

In what way is Adm. Crandall owed any of that? She went to Spindle to arrest those that killed Adm. Byng and assert the dominance of the Solarian League over the neo-barbarians. Just like Crassus' campaign against the Parthian Empire ending in his defeat and death at the Battle of Carrhae or the ambush and destruction of three Roman legions in the Teutoburg Forest, the SLN was sent into battle without knowing the enemy and without knowing their own weakness.



Adm Henke could have explained all of this to Adm Crandall before Tekerov opened fire.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Theemile   » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:52 pm

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tlb wrote:
Fox2! wrote:It's up to SLN ONI to provide a proper appreciation of the capabilities of any potential opponent. Mike (and the RMN/GA) have no responsibility to demonstrate the power of the Mk 23 missile system, whether controlled by SD(P)s or "mere" CAs.

They did demonstrate the power of the missile system, but the SLN ONI after action report declared that it was system defense pods tractored to the CAs that produced the damage. Even that should have given them pause: if a cruiser could tow missile pods that could destroyer a SD from long range, then the SLN was already screwed. But they waved their hands and said that the Yawata Strike must have flushed all the defense pods around the Manticore system, so Adm. Filetra should have no problem.

Madness


Reguardless of the firing source, one point the SLN ONI missed was that 12 Heavy cruisers fired ~10,000 Guided, long ranged capital missiles per salvo. Yes, they didn't come from internal tubes, but 12 CAs had the firecontol to easily destroy 2x their number in SDs in one swat.

That alone should have had someone saying "excuse me?"
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by tlb   » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:14 pm

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cthia wrote:Mike took her gloves off in this boxing match. She cheated -- just like her BFF in the ramblings thread. Go figure. LOL

tlb wrote:What cheat?

TFLYTSNBN wrote: Deploying a squadron of "mere" Saganami C heavy cruisers along with one geriatric DN to defend Spindle while covertly deploying a freighter full of Apollo pods is sneaky.

Not warning Adm Crandal that the Mark 23 missile is designed to ream Haven SDs which have far better missilr defenses and tougher armor than SLN SDs is decrptive.

Not warning Crandal that even without Keyhole 2 to provide FTL fire control, the Apollo control missiles effectively multiply the number of FC control channels by a factor of 8, and Saggy Cs have far more control channels than they ought to, is just plain diabolical.

Not warning Crandal that all of those recon drones provide FTL sensor readings effectively reduce the control time lag by 50% is just evil.

tlb wrote:In what way is Adm. Crandall owed any of that? She went to Spindle to arrest those that killed Adm. Byng and assert the dominance of the Solarian League over the neo-barbarians. Just like Crassus' campaign against the Parthian Empire ending in his defeat and death at the Battle of Carrhae or the ambush and destruction of three Roman legions in the Teutoburg Forest, the SLN was sent into battle without knowing the enemy and without knowing their own weakness.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Adm Henke could have explained all of this to Adm Crandall before Tekerov opened fire.

Hypothetically that is true, so what? Adm. Crandall did not want and would not accept anything from the Talbot Quadrant authorities except the people who killed Adm. Byng, so they could be punished for insulting the SLN.

She came looking for a fight and got one. She could not run and would never surrender without a shot fired. The only change that I can see worth making would be to save missiles and only blow up Crandall's ship and a couple others, then explain to the new CO that they had no option but surrender.

If you can provide a rationale for the RMN doing what you suggest, then I am prepared to hear it; but making the fight fairer is not a military imperative. So are you serious or just trying to provoke an argument for laughs?
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:08 pm

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Theemile wrote:
tlb wrote:





They did demonstrate the power of the missile system, but the SLN ONI after action report declared that it was system defense pods tractored to the CAs that produced the damage. Even that should have given them pause: if a cruiser could tow missile pods that could destroyer a SD from long range, then the SLN was already screwed. But they waved their hands and said that the Yawata Strike must have flushed all the defense pods around the Manticore system, so Adm. Filetra should have no problem.

Madness


Reguardless of the firing source, one point the SLN ONI missed was that 12 Heavy cruisers fired ~10,000 Guided, long ranged capital missiles per salvo. Yes, they didn't come from internal tubes, but 12 CAs had the firecontol to easily destroy 2x their number in SDs in one swat.

That alone should have had someone saying "excuse me?"



A more probable response would be "oh SHIT!" followed by "I need to change my panties."
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by tlb   » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:45 pm

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tlb wrote:They did demonstrate the power of the missile system, but the SLN ONI after action report declared that it was system defense pods tractored to the CAs that produced the damage. Even that should have given them pause: if a cruiser could tow missile pods that could destroyer a SD from long range, then the SLN was already screwed. But they waved their hands and said that the Yawata Strike must have flushed all the defense pods around the Manticore system, so Adm. Filetra should have no problem.

Madness

Theemile wrote:Reguardless of the firing source, one point the SLN ONI missed was that 12 Heavy cruisers fired ~10,000 Guided, long ranged capital missiles per salvo. Yes, they didn't come from internal tubes, but 12 CAs had the firecontol to easily destroy 2x their number in SDs in one swat.

That alone should have had someone saying "excuse me?"

TFLYTSNBN wrote:A more probable response would be "oh SHIT!" followed by "I need to change my panties."

Given the shoddy state of the SLN ONI, divorced from all reality, they probably refused to believe the data.

However among those witnesses in the SLN ships receiving the missile storm, there was probably a more visceral response (perhaps as indicated above).
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by Eagleeye   » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:48 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Mike took her gloves off in this boxing match. She cheated -- just like her BFF in the ramblings thread. Go figure. LOL

What cheat?

TFLYTSNBN wrote: Deploying a squadron of "mere" Saganami C heavy cruisers along with one geriatric DN to defend Spindle while covertly deploying a freighter full of Apollo pods is sneaky.

Not warning Adm Crandal that the Mark 23 missile is designed to ream Haven SDs which have far better missilr defenses and tougher armor than SLN SDs is decrptive.

Not warning Crandal that even without Keyhole 2 to provide FTL fire control, the Apollo control missiles effectively multiply the number of FC control channels by a factor of 8, and Saggy Cs have far more control channels than they ought to, is just plain diabolical.

Not warning Crandal that all of those recon drones provide FTL sensor readings effectively reduce the control time lag by 50% is just evil.

tlb wrote:In what way is Adm. Crandall owed any of that? She went to Spindle to arrest those that killed Adm. Byng and assert the dominance of the Solarian League over the neo-barbarians. Just like Crassus' campaign against the Parthian Empire ending in his defeat and death at the Battle of Carrhae or the ambush and destruction of three Roman legions in the Teutoburg Forest, the SLN was sent into battle without knowing the enemy and without knowing their own weakness.



TFLYTSNBN wrote:Adm Henke could have explained all of this to Adm Crandall before Tekerov opened fire.


No, she couldn't. As I already wrote in my first answer: "By the way, if Henke did what you proposed, she probably would've been court-martialed (or at least would've faced a court of inquiry) because she deliberately would've given away crucial information about the abilities of the RMN to an adversary, those intentions regarding the Star Empire were at least highly doubtful."
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by stewart   » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:41 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:
If you can provide a rationale for the RMN doing what you suggest, then I am prepared to hear it; but making the fight fairer is not a military imperative. So are you serious or just trying to provoke an argument for laughs?


--------------------

Neither Henke, Khumalo or Terekov were obligated to tell Crandall (who was the aggressor) what sort of hornets nest she was putting her delicate parts into.
rough quote/paraphrase of G.S.Patton -- It is not your duty to die for your country; it is your job to make the other dumb SOB die for HIS country.
and again, a commander's responsibility is first to his/her own troops, not the enemy's troops.

-- Stewart
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:53 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Mike took her gloves off in this boxing match. She cheated -- just like her BFF in the ramblings thread. Go figure. LOL

What cheat?



TFLYTSNBN wrote:Deploying a squadron of "mere" Saganami C heavy cruisers along with one geriatric DN to defend Spindle while covertly deploying a freighter full of Apollo pods is sneaky.

Not warning Adm Crandal that the Mark 23 missile is designed to ream Haven SDs which have far better missilr defenses and tougher armor than SLN SDs is decrptive.

Not warning Crandal that even without Keyhole 2 to provide FTL fire control, the Apollo control missiles effectively multiply the number of FC control channels by a factor of 8, and Saggy Cs have far more control channels than they ought to, is just plain diabolical.

Not warning Crandal that all of those recon drones provide FTL sensor readings effectively reduce the control time lag by 50% is just evil.


:lol:

What FLY said!

I missed this post! Actually, tlb, I was simply joking. Of course Henke didn't do anything wrong, except remove her gloves. She pulled a dirty Mike. . . Tyson. You can't bite someone's ear off or remove your gloves in the middle of a boxing match. LOL . . .

"Trust me, Cindy. If that is the way she's thinking, she's in for a rude awakening. I'd really prefer to stall, as I said, in the hope the Admiralty's managed to expedite our reinforcements and they come over the alpha wall in the proverbial nick of time. I'm not going to hold my breath counting on that, though, and I'm not going to delay a single minute if it looks like they mean to keep right on coming. Which brings me to the fourth thing I want to be certain we accomplish."

She paused, and silence hovered for a second or two until Oversteegen broke it.

"And that fourth thing would be what, Milady?" he asked.

"The instant any Solly warship crosses the Spindle hyper limit inbound," Michelle Henke said flatly, "the gloves come off. There won't be any preliminary surrender demands this time, and despite whatever Admiral Crandall may be thinking, we're not going to be thinking in terms of a fighting retreat, either. I think it's about time we find out just how accurate our assumptions about Battle Fleet's combat capability really are."
Pardon my bold.


Fleet Admiral Sandra Crandall was described as a fat-assed woman with a fat-assed task force. Mike simply put her on the SlimFast plan -- known galaxy-wide as the die-yet.

Somehow the RMN came across as a bunch of piss ants, knowing full well they are dreaded fire ants.

"The Solarian League can't accept something like this—not out of some frigging little pissant navy out beyond the Verge—not matter what kind of provocation they may think they have! If we let them get away with this, God only knows who's going to try something stupid next!"

—Fleet Admiral Sandra Crandall, SLN


I know textev says the two opponents were pretty evenly matched without the pods if Henke had fought smartly. Though I wonder exactly how her approach would have changed if her cavalry of pods had not arrived, JIT.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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