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Rape Successful?

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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:48 am

cthia
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Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

ldwechsler wrote:
cthia" quote="cthia wrote:It's time to scratch the hard questions. Questions itching up my butt . . .

Will Treecats be considered totally equal to humans? Does a Treecat have a right to protect himself if he feels threatened? How far does that go? If a Treecat is intentionally slipped a Mickey to incapacitate him, does Nimitz have a right to attack? If he is found guilty, then the 'Cat should be able to accept jail time.

Let's consider another scenario very close to our hearts recently. Had Nimitz slit Burdette's throat in the ramblings thread, would he simply have been subjected to the legal system or summarily shot? Which should happen, if the defendant is human?


ldwechsler wrote:The problem is sort of moot. At the time of the duel, there had been no rulings. If Nimitz had not been shot by a guard, etc., he would have been held as a prisoner while the issues were discussed. The loss of Honor probably would have killed him anyway. Remember that most cats died when their humans did.


Cleaned up quotes.

cthia wrote:I'm trying to point out the implications of the Treecats found to be an intelligent species needing to be integrated in every way into human society. Which means man has to watch his step now, lest he finds himself on the receiving end of some sharp claws.

Let's consider a common situation where a bunch of yahoos - who haven't exactly gotten the message - get into a reckless mood and decide to taunt a treecat. Perhaps with what they feel is a harmless act of bullying. Let's say shooting a cat repeatedly with plastic darts from a child's toy. The 'Cat may not view it as harmless, seeing the possibility of losing an eye, the same thing a child's parents warn against. What's a 'Cat supposed to do, turn the other cheek?

<I turned the other cheek, it didn't like it either.>


ldwechsler wrote:Most people on Manticore and Sphynx know about treecats. Also, cats are really good at throwing things. Would you want to be the recipients of one of those darts?

And the cats are fast. They can get into the face of those doing the annoyance and use true hands to annoy without killing.

Plus, people will recall that it's called "The Queen's Justice".
Would you want to piss off this particular queen by damaging a treecat?



saber964 wrote:Treecats understand proportional response to situations. Consult Tennessee Bolgia and the Macabees coup assassins. Lionheart and company shredded his environment suit into confetti and left him with a load of scratches and Nimitz killed his first target and blinded the rest who were later interrogated. If a bunch of punk kids were harassing a treecat that way, I can see a couple of kids hiking home with a boatload of scratches in there underwear and trying t o explain to there parents why the treecats did that to them.

What about the small percentage of the population that didn't get the memo? What about tourists who didn't bother to read the travel advisory? What about the racist human who hates alien species?

I certainly agree the 'Cats are going to have to mete out a lot of proportional response before man learns a much needed lesson.

Yes, the 'Cats understand proportional response. Humans understand proportional response as well. And we all know all too well that the response needed in some cases is proportionally high. Suddenly while walking down the boulevard, man isn't at the top of the food chain.

What about when a treecat travels to other planets that have never even heard of a Treecat other than the cats stuck in their tree?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:25 pm

cthia
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Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

ldwechsler wrote:
cthia" quote="cthia wrote:It's time to scratch the hard questions. Questions itching up my butt . . .

Will Treecats be considered totally equal to humans? Does a Treecat have a right to protect himself if he feels threatened? How far does that go? If a Treecat is intentionally slipped a Mickey to incapacitate him, does Nimitz have a right to attack? If he is found guilty, then the 'Cat should be able to accept jail time.

Let's consider another scenario very close to our hearts recently. Had Nimitz slit Burdette's throat in the ramblings thread, would he simply have been subjected to the legal system or summarily shot? Which should happen, if the defendant is human?


ldwechsler wrote:The problem is sort of moot. At the time of the duel, there had been no rulings. If Nimitz had not been shot by a guard, etc., he would have been held as a prisoner while the issues were discussed. The loss of Honor probably would have killed him anyway. Remember that most cats died when their humans did.


Cleaned up quotes.

cthia wrote:I'm trying to point out the implications of the Treecats found to be an intelligent species needing to be integrated in every way into human society. Which means man has to watch his step now, lest he finds himself on the receiving end of some sharp claws.

Let's consider a common situation where a bunch of yahoos - who haven't exactly gotten the message - get into a reckless mood and decide to taunt a treecat. Perhaps with what they feel is a harmless act of bullying. Let's say shooting a cat repeatedly with plastic darts from a child's toy. The 'Cat may not view it as harmless, seeing the possibility of losing an eye, the same thing a child's parents warn against. What's a 'Cat supposed to do, turn the other cheek?

<I turned the other cheek, it didn't like it either.>


ldwechsler wrote:Most people on Manticore and Sphynx know about treecats. Also, cats are really good at throwing things. Would you want to be the recipients of one of those darts?

And the cats are fast. They can get into the face of those doing the annoyance and use true hands to annoy without killing.

Plus, people will recall that it's called "The Queen's Justice".
Would you want to piss off this particular queen by damaging a treecat?



saber964 wrote:Treecats understand proportional response to situations. Consult Tennessee Bolgia and the Macabees coup assassins. Lionheart and company shredded his environment suit into confetti and left him with a load of scratches and Nimitz killed his first target and blinded the rest who were later interrogated. If a bunch of punk kids were harassing a treecat that way, I can see a couple of kids hiking home with a boatload of scratches in there underwear and trying t o explain to there parents why the treecats did that to them.

cthia wrote:What about the small percentage of the population that didn't get the memo? What about tourists who didn't bother to read the travel advisory? What about the racist human who hates alien species?

I certainly agree the 'Cats are going to have to mete out a lot of proportional response before man learns a much needed lesson.

Yes, the 'Cats understand proportional response. Humans understand proportional response as well. And we all know all too well that the response needed in some cases is proportionally high. Suddenly while walking down the boulevard, man isn't at the top of the food chain.

What about when a treecat travels to other planets that have never even heard of a Treecat other than the cats stuck in their tree?
I'll pardon my own bold.

IOW, the 'Cats may need as much of a travel advisory as Courvosier gave Honor before Yeltsin Star . . .

"Now Nimitz, there's a few things you need to know before you go slapping the Pavel Young out of somebody." LOL


I love Honor more than anything, but she wouldn't have been the same heroine she is now, as far as I'm concerned, if she had been raped. The series would have lost something for me. I don't think the sensibilities of mankind as a whole is such that we are ready to accept a rape victim as a heroine. Accept her w/o due bias. Even if only subconsciously. Rape is a brutal crime. The only recourse that a heroine has, to maybe gain creditability as a heroine. . . is . . . something like the vengeance in I Spit On Your Grave. They raped her. They raped her brutally.

She raped them back. She raped them back. . . brutally. My weirdly wired brain can only accept her as a heroine if my own sordid need for revenge is soothed. That character got the vengeance of a heroine. She redeemed herself. I won't be thinking how viciously they raped her, but how viciously she raped them. If Honor had been raped - to satisfy this reader - Weber would have had to hand me Pavel Young's detached testicles literally dangling in Honors bionic hand before she's the heroine, in my head.

Having said all of that. If Honor had been raped, I would have worried about Nimitz even more. My niece - somewhere around 13-yrs-old at the time - said she didn't know why Nimitz never needed therapy. Can you imagine being able to feel the degree of emotional pain a loved one is actually enduring? Nimitz would have known how much emotional pain Honor was suffering after being raped by Young, incessantly warring with her sense of duty. Yet knowing how helpless and hurt and hurt and helpless Nimitz is feeling. Literally at the end of a limb. Being an empath, Nimitz would have been emotionally raped as well. There simply has to be an emotional breaking point for a 'Cat. Temporary insanity? Some sort of a knee jerk reaction? The emotional suffering emanating from Honor would have been beating Nimitz' senses worse than Manty ECM beat the Peeps' sensors. It's one thing if Honor's response would have been measured, out of a sense of duty. But Nimitz is an empath, it may not be reasonable to expect an empath to suffer that much emotional pain. Humans don't hurt quite as much emotionally for the pain of a loved one as much as a 'Cat. And we all know many humans who self-destructed under the weight of emotional pain. And our sensors don't take nearly the load as an empath. The 'Cats can dial it down. But they can't dial it away. There certainly must be times when, well . . .

<That's as low as it will go>

I remember my old Sansui Amplifier where one click on the volume knob was too high instead of the continuously variable function of some receivers. Honor knew the pain she was causing Nimitz. That's why she left him in his quarters often enough. TBH, that was the least she could do for him. It was at least considerate. Putting on the cloak of consideration at any rate. But hiding the pain she suffered at any time in the end would have been worse than her trying to hide she had just had sex with Hamish from an empath whose other senses of smell are just as telling.

How much can we reasonably ask of the 'Cats to suffer emotionally? It's much easier to suffer oneself than to suffer ones loved ones. We've all suffered our own emotional pain. But can you imagine a switch being turned on where you suddenly experience the actual pain your mother or sister or wife is suffering? Of course, we know our mothers are hurting, but we really have no clue how much. We may think we do. Woe to us if we actually did. Say your mother or sister got brutally raped like the heroine in I Spit On Your Grave. Could you dial it down any better than Samuel L. Jackson did in A Time To kill when his 10-yr-old daughter was raped by two racists?

But then we expect it from a 'Cat? An empathic species? Who really knows the extent of the pain?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The only thing that would have kept Nimitz from opening his claws while deeply embedded up Young's anal orifice is if it had been done already.

My niece really has a point. Big wonder why Nimitz never needed therapy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:34 am

TFLYTSNBN
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Posts: 894
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

I think that Weber made the best call by not allowing the rape to be successful. It would have undermined the credibility of Honor as a heroine. The same consideration would have applied if Harrington had been a male charcter rather than female. It does happen.

To be honest, IIRC I did peruse OBS when it first came out but didnt buy because my quick perusal found a reference to that attempted rape. It made the book seem melodramatic and tawdry like a John Norman novel. I gave the series a second chance when I perused a later book then bought HotQ.

IMHO, the one positive aspect of the whole sexual assault issue was Seargent Ramirez questioning the professional duelist in FoD and explaining, "I said I wouldnt kill you. I didnt say I wouldnt hurt you."
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:25 pm

cthia
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Posts: 10913
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I think that Weber made the best call by not allowing the rape to be successful. It would have undermined the credibility of Honor as a heroine. The same consideration would have applied if Harrington had been a male charcter rather than female. It does happen.

To be honest, IIRC I did peruse OBS when it first came out but didnt buy because my quick perusal found a reference to that attempted rape. It made the book seem melodramatic and tawdry like a John Norman novel. I gave the series a second chance when I perused a later book then bought HotQ.

IMHO, the one positive aspect of the whole sexual assault issue was Seargent Ramirez questioning the professional duelist in FoD and explaining, "I said I wouldnt kill you. I didnt say I wouldnt hurt you."


Ditto.

There wouldn't have been any "balance" for Honor. Psychologically, it could have proved too much for her in light of her insecurities along with prolong's ugly duckling stage.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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