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The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten

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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:21 pm

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cthia wrote:Why not design kamikazes? It's not like they will ever run in short supply. Just pull the lever and speed up the assembly line. BuPers never had it so good.

Malign Kamikaze - Iteration 47.

MK - 47: A LINE BORN TO DIE

Because at the closing speeds of missiles, and the requisite speed they have to make decisions decisions a computer will significantly outperform a human. Because a human can't take the acceleration a computer can. Because a human can't understand the breadth of EM spectrum a computer can. Because it takes a lot more time and resources to breed a few thousand suicide pilots for a single squadron salvo than to build a few thousand computers. Heck the life support to keep the kamikaze pilot alive for the flight time of the missile would be more expensive than the existing targeting computers.

(And the computer is less likely to get break programming and decide to attack the people who senselessly strapped it into an expendable munition)

And they already have Ghosts to act as scouts and forward controllers, so they don't even need the extremely high risk (but not actually suicide attackers) recon LACs like Haven used during Thunderbolt to control the recon drones and FTL their findings back to the fleet far behind them.


So why would the MAlign want a kamikaze? (I can see where as a reader someone might want it to further justify their belief that the MAlign are utterly evil; but where's the in-universe benefit to them to do this?)
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:28 pm

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Theemile wrote:How could a man survive 46,000 Gs of acceleration?

cthia wrote:Gonna have to ask the Malign that one, or why a man in the cockpit would be more effective than a computer.

But! Perhaps along with special suits, the MA has designed humans to withstand the acceleration by crossing them with certain creatures who may have the ability. It's the notion that interests me, along with the unshakeable notion of giving MA ships a kamikaze factor.

Slagless DNA. Mere accel can't turn these inhumans into slag.

I think you are missing one opportunity. Consider that the Shark class and the Lenny Det Class are limited in acceleration, because they use gravity plates to protect the crew from acceleration. What if the crews were protected from acceleration in some other way? Then those ships might have the same or better acceleration than regular war ships.

Rather than trying to breed a special human for this purpose, extract the brain and put it in a support module eliminating all problems with lungs, heart and bones. Provide it with a battle armor type suit for when it needed to move around to make repairs, or so on; but it is tied directly to the sensors and computer when crewing the ship. This would be something like the "brain" ships of Anne McCaffrey's The Ship That Sang series, except those were people who retained their handicapped bodies.
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:00 am

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I appreciate the input Jonathan. I was beginning to think no one was at home at the MWDB.

Because at the closing speeds of missiles, and the requisite speed they have to make decisions decisions a computer will significantly outperform a human.
I'm not so sure about that in every situation. Certainly, ship to ship missile combat probably needs to be left up to a computer (unless a manned missile when enroute to the planet sees the Salamander's ship sitting helpless like a duck in orbit), but orbital infrastructure and planetary attacks on key targets is another thing entirely. Where I see a manned missile has an advantage. Entering the atmosphere and attacking power distribution nodes, military targets like the Queens Palace and residence, etc., etc. There's plenty of time to zero in on these targets. These pilots have practiced and practiced on a barren planet in the Darius system and mockup simulations of key GA planets.

Because a human can't take the acceleration a computer can.
Genetically modified humans sitting in a specially formulated liquid in a specially formulated shell, wearing a specially formulated suit should be able to withstand much higher accelerations. Perhaps nowhere near the 46 G mentioned by Theemile, but ballistically launched manned missiles wouldn't have to come anywhere near that accel.

Because a human can't understand the breadth of EM spectrum a computer can.
Which is why said pilot would have advantage of computer assist with readouts, inputting canned instructions OTF.

Because it takes a lot more time and resources to breed a few thousand suicide pilots for a single squadron salvo than to build a few thousand computers.
Yet it is a lot more costly to build immense fleets of ships than an immense store of manned missiles for a fleet of carriers. There's no comparison. As far as time. The MA has time to spare. Kamikaze pilots can be as young as 18 yrs old. A red army of millions can be grown by then and easily trained for such a specialized mission.

Heck the life support to keep the kamikaze pilot alive for the flight time of the missile would be more expensive than the existing targeting computers.
Would it? I don't see life support as being a problem at all for a doomed pilot on a one way journey. Food is the cheapest thing. He lives off of a specially formulated goo. His genetically engineered breathing is the most efficient life has seen using oxygen created onboard. You are looking at this from a human standpoint of caring about the pilot. These are kamikazes, doomed pilots. Pilots who historically endured harsh conditions - this is the legend of the kamikaze pilot. Not an RMN pilot you want to bring home. Read the history of the kamikaze pilots, their strenuous training and harsh conditions.

(And the computer is less likely to get break programming and decide to attack the people who senselessly strapped it into an expendable munition)
When has the MA worried about mass uprisings with the presence of a kill switch? Mass uprisings would be a problem across the entire MA board if present. Remember, this is all this line knows. The Japanese kamikaze was brainwashed into thinking it was an honor to die for the IJN.

When you eliminate all thoughts about life and death, you will be able to totally disregard your earthly life. This will also enable you to concentrate your attention on eradicating the enemy with unwavering determination, meanwhile reinforcing your excellence in flight skills.
— Excerpt from a kamikaze pilots' manual
Tokkōtai pilot training, as described by Takeo Kasuga, generally "consisted of incredibly strenuous training, coupled with cruel and torturous corporal punishment as a daily routine". Daikichi Irokawa, who trained at Tsuchiura Naval Air Base, recalled that he "was struck on the face so hard and frequently that [his] face was no longer recognizable". He also wrote: "I was hit so hard that I could no longer see and fell on the floor. The minute I got up, I was hit again by a club so that I would confess." This brutal "training" was justified by the idea that it would instill a "soldier's fighting spirit", but daily beatings and corporal punishment eliminated patriotism among many pilots.
How harsh and brutal is the training given to sex slaves? In keeping, how harsh do you think MA training would likewise be for an MA kamikaze pilot? Considering that Japan has already set the bar high. And that the MA have no qualms with what we consider cruelty.

And they already have Ghosts to act as scouts and forward controllers, so they don't even need the extremely high risk (but not actually suicide attackers) recon LACs like Haven used during Thunderbolt to control the recon drones and FTL their findings back to the fleet far behind them.
Assisting the limited supply of expensive Ghosts is a swarm of bees who die after they have stung.

So why would the MAlign want a kamikaze? (I can see where as a reader someone might want it to further justify their belief that the MAlign are utterly evil; but where's the in-universe benefit to them to do this?)
Because they are cheaper. It is much cheaper to amass an immense store of manned missiles instead of ships. Because the GA is working on detecting their signature. It won't help against thousands of invisible manned missiles coming in hot at the planet, with human brains picking targets out of many mocked sims of the Manty home planet. Because just like the US navy didn't expect this type of an attack and was ill prepared for it, so too it is regarding the MA's unleashed kamikaze terror on the galaxy . . .

For the million dollar question. Why would using kamikaze attacks suddenly cross some imaginary line into proving the MA are evil? Do you see kamikaze attacks as being the worse thing the MA has ever done??? Really Jonathan! I simply see it as business as usual. Simple design goals to achieve victory. Do remember, the MA didn't create the kamikaze concept. Present day man did.

I have long since seen the MAlign as a dirty prize fighter. A grappler, who will bite your ear off in a boxing match. The MA will totally turn strategic and tactical warfare on its head in the Honorverse, using all of the historical tactics of medieval and modern man. They have their own way of doing things. The GA will have to leave their comfort zone for this new and determined enemy. You asked for a worthy opponent, well okay, but be careful what you ask for. This worthy opponent plays by its own rules and marches to the beat of a dirty drum.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:37 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:How could a man survive 46,000 Gs of acceleration?

cthia wrote:Gonna have to ask the Malign that one, or why a man in the cockpit would be more effective than a computer.

But! Perhaps along with special suits, the MA has designed humans to withstand the acceleration by crossing them with certain creatures who may have the ability. It's the notion that interests me, along with the unshakeable notion of giving MA ships a kamikaze factor.

Slagless DNA. Mere accel can't turn these inhumans into slag.

I think you are missing one opportunity. Consider that the Shark class and the Lenny Det Class are limited in acceleration, because they use gravity plates to protect the crew from acceleration. What if the crews were protected from acceleration in some other way? Then those ships might have the same or better acceleration than regular war ships.

Rather than trying to breed a special human for this purpose, extract the brain and put it in a support module eliminating all problems with lungs, heart and bones. Provide it with a battle armor type suit for when it needed to move around to make repairs, or so on; but it is tied directly to the sensors and computer when crewing the ship. This would be something like the "brain" ships of Anne McCaffrey's The Ship That Sang series, except those were people who retained their handicapped bodies.
Ingenious tlb. Simply brilliant. Even in my scenario the body is essentially nonexistent in battle mode, existing only to fuel the brain. I am also prepared that a human genengineered in this extreme manner may very well be the ugliest in the galaxy.


There are so many ways the MA can introduce the kamikaze factor. Kamikaze attacks have merit. It is quite difficult to defend against a foe who is not only willing to die, but eager. Thus, he is able to attack in unprecedented ways because he is unconcerned with death. If the Japanese had more capable planes, jet planes delivering the kamikaze threat! . . .

日本語は話せますか

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:12 am

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tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:How could a man survive 46,000 Gs of acceleration?

cthia wrote:Gonna have to ask the Malign that one, or why a man in the cockpit would be more effective than a computer.

But! Perhaps along with special suits, the MA has designed humans to withstand the acceleration by crossing them with certain creatures who may have the ability. It's the notion that interests me, along with the unshakeable notion of giving MA ships a kamikaze factor.

Slagless DNA. Mere accel can't turn these inhumans into slag.

I think you are missing one opportunity. Consider that the Shark class and the Lenny Det Class are limited in acceleration, because they use gravity plates to protect the crew from acceleration. What if the crews were protected from acceleration in some other way? Then those ships might have the same or better acceleration than regular war ships.

Rather than trying to breed a special human for this purpose, extract the brain and put it in a support module eliminating all problems with lungs, heart and bones. Provide it with a battle armor type suit for when it needed to move around to make repairs, or so on; but it is tied directly to the sensors and computer when crewing the ship. This would be something like the "brain" ships of Anne McCaffrey's The Ship That Sang series, except those were people who retained their handicapped bodies.



So we're making Trolls now?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:06 am

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might need to explain that Apocalypse Troll reference for those who has as yet to explore RFC's other works
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 am

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Dauntless wrote:might need to explain that Apocalypse Troll reference for those who has as yet to explore RFC's other works

So true - in another Weber work, Apocalypse troll, enemy combatants are Trolls - modified, bred human brains in an armored mech suit or a fighter craft. The Opposition found that doing that to human brains made a superior combat unit to their previous AI models.

In short - been done in another Weber universe.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:38 pm

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cthia wrote:I appreciate the input Jonathan. I was beginning to think no one was at home at the MWDB.

Because at the closing speeds of missiles, and the requisite speed they have to make decisions decisions a computer will significantly outperform a human.
I'm not so sure about that in every situation. Certainly, ship to ship missile combat probably needs to be left up to a computer (unless a manned missile when enroute to the planet sees the Salamander's ship sitting helpless like a duck in orbit), but orbital infrastructure and planetary attacks on key targets is another thing entirely. Where I see a manned missile has an advantage. Entering the atmosphere and attacking power distribution nodes, military targets like the Queens Palace and residence, etc., etc. There's plenty of time to zero in on these targets. These pilots have practiced and practiced on a barren planet in the Darius system and mockup simulations of key GA planets.
If they're coming in slowly enough to survive entering the atmosphere and maneuvering after ground targets then they're practically sitting ducks for any air-defense (unless arriving in overwhelming numbers). If they'd coming in fast enough to blow through the air defense then they're making megaton+ level kinetic impacts and targeting is almost irrelevant so why do you need a human in the loop?

cthia wrote:
Because a human can't take the acceleration a computer can.
Genetically modified humans sitting in a specially formulated liquid in a specially formulated shell, wearing a specially formulated suit should be able to withstand much higher accelerations. Perhaps nowhere near the 46 G mentioned by Theemile, but ballistically launched manned missiles wouldn't have to come anywhere near that accel.
And 48 G is nothing compared to 45,000+ gees Honorvere missiles routinely pull on low acceleration. If you're using Spider drives and mega grav plates (and now your missile is at least as large as a pinnace - so many times more expensive than a conventional missile) and letting 48 G bleed through than you might be pulling 200 Gs. But if you're using Spider drive then stealth is more important than speed - but then you need to keep the pilot alive and functional during the much longer flight time of the "missile"

cthia wrote:
Because it takes a lot more time and resources to breed a few thousand suicide pilots for a single squadron salvo than to build a few thousand computers.
Yet it is a lot more costly to build immense fleets of ships than an immense store of manned missiles for a fleet of carriers. There's no comparison. As far as time. The MA has time to spare. Kamikaze pilots can be as young as 18 yrs old. A red army of millions can be grown by then and easily trained for such a specialized mission.
And in the 18 years it take to grow the first millions you could have produced literally billions of computer controlled missiles.
cthia wrote:
Heck the life support to keep the kamikaze pilot alive for the flight time of the missile would be more expensive than the existing targeting computers.
Would it? I don't see life support as being a problem at all for a doomed pilot on a one way journey. Food is the cheapest thing. He lives off of a specially formulated goo. His genetically engineered breathing is the most efficient life has seen using oxygen created onboard. You are looking at this from a human standpoint of caring about the pilot. These are kamikazes, doomed pilots. Pilots who historically endured harsh conditions - this is the legend of the kamikaze pilot. Not an RMN pilot you want to bring home. Read the history of the kamikaze pilots, their strenuous training and harsh conditions.
Yes, life support is more than food and water. In space you need the kamikaze pilots to be alert and functional enough to control the missile. That means they need breathable air, sufficient oxygen and not too much CO2, for (depending on attack profile) somewhere between 9 minutes and a several days. They need to be kept within a temperature range that isn't incapacitating, not subject to debilitating levels of acceleration, shielded from levels of radiation that are quickly incapacitating or lethal. You can skimp on that some, but the harsher the conditions they're subjected to the quicker they lose their peak performance. Even for the shortest attack which could easily be done with canned air and no CO2 scrubber adding the air tank, seat for the pilot, and the manual controls probably costs more than running off attack computer 10,007 from the molicyrc production line. (Plus of course the human is physically larger than the computer, so you need a physically larger "missile" - you can't skimp on sensors but now you need displays or other ways to share their data with the human instead of connecting them directly to the computer.

Basically you're adding a lot of size and complexity and IMHO reducing the effectiveness, just to try to remove the cheap part of the missile -- the mass produced targeting computer.

I totally understand the practical realities of why the Japanese resorted to suicide pilots. (And why the US experimented with pigeon guided anti-ship weapons) There were no computers available that could do the job and computers were rare and very large / heavy, while there were lots of young men already around. Plus they looked at the numbers and found that giving the crappy level of training they could give new pilots they were unlikely to survive their first combat mission anyway and unlikely to be able to hit with a bomb or torpedo. So given a choice between doing nothing and sending them to die inflicting damage versus die in a hopeless attempt at conventional attack they chose suicide over surrender. But none of those same preconditions exist with the MAlign in the Honorverse. I mean they're clearly not above killing people to achieve their ends, and have plenty of people willing to accept suicide protocols to protect their secrets - so they probably could get kamikaze pilots if there was a benifit. But I'm still utterly unconvinced that there is any practical benefit to human torpedoes/missiles giving the conditions of the Honorverse.
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:55 am

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I truly appreciate your points Jonathan. All of man must communicate before we can truly hope to rebuild the Tower of Babel.

I should get this out there. Clearly, there simply has to be some worthwhile advantage in putting a human brain in a manned missile downstream. If there is no advantage, then it doesn't matter even if the MAlign can solve all of the problems posed by the objections posited here. It all becomes a moot point.

I thought, perhaps in error, that the notion could solve the FTL problem because actual brains would be making the final decisions downstream. But that's mostly important in ship-to-ship attacks. Ship to ship engagements probably should be left up to the computer, unless missile lock is lost. But ballistic attacks on infrastructure - orbital or planetary - it seems, could benefit from the targeting of a brain since enemy warships may not be able to get anywhere near the planet to finely target key military objections beyond the Queen's Palace. E.g., power distribution nodes, dams, bridges, government structures, etc. I'm hoping the Malign can build on the notion of rewriting the book on EEV, first posited here, and KEWing a planet with little damage to the planet and minimal loss of civilian lives.

Certainly, missiles shouldn't become a write-off because of lost missile lock. A human brain can help reacquire something.

At any rate, I remain hopeful that kamikaze attacks are just waiting to be implemented into MAlign warfare, and I seriously think it could be highly successful if implemented correctly.

About that Apocalypse Troll thing. Is it high time Sci-Fi bleed in elements from different worlds as movies and television has? Supergirl has a guest appearance by the Flash in a couple episodes and it wasn't an unprecedented notion, not by a long shot. It happens quite a bit. Is there a reason an author can't do some of the same? The MAlign certainly has the capability and the resources if anyone has. Tlb's notion a few clicks upstream is simply brilliant and certainly within the purview and the MO of the MAlign. IMO.

There has been a few ideas detailing how the MA can engage the enemy with kamikaze tactics. Any more?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:23 am

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cthia wrote:<snip>I should get this out there. Clearly, there simply has to be some worthwhile advantage in putting a human brain in a manned missile downstream<snip>


No, there clearly is NOT a reason to put a human brain in a missile in the Honorverse. Why are you insisting on pushing this?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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