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Post League Eridani

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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by tlb   » Tue May 28, 2019 4:27 pm

tlb
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I get the impression that while parts are fabricated on 3D printers, some assembly may be required. Smallish, mass produced items such as MDMs, DDMs and missile pods are probably assembled by robotic systems. Larger items such as warships are probably assembled by those hardsuited workers Weber has written so much about.

I suspect that not all Honorverse 3D printers are created equal.
Some are bigger than others.
Some are faster than others.
Some have the capability to place particles or even individual atoms more precisely than others.

This last attribute differentistes the truly high tech polities (Manticore, Grayson (years after HotQ), Beawulf, SL core worlds, Andermandi) from the neobarbs such as Silesia, the Verge, Grayson (before HotQ when Honor Harrington brought all of the goodies), and the PRH.

runsforcelery wrote:The printers produce components: period. Most of the sub-assemblies (and some of the "big ticket" items, like Apollo missiles, for example) are then built "assembly line" by robotic assemblers which are permanently mated with the printers dedicated to producing their components. First World star nations (like Manticore, Beowulf, most of the League worlds, etc.) use a lot of robotics in their shipyards --- there have been quite a few references to "construction" robots, I believe. More backward star nations (like pre-Alliance Grayson) use a lot more muscle power. This is not to say that First World shipyards us no "hand-fitted" parts, but they use very, very, very few of them compared to pre-Alliance Grayson.

One of the big elements in Manticore's edge in shipbuilding and munitions production was that the SKM had improved incrementally at almost every stage of the process, including (especially) printer capabilities and better and more efficient use of robotics. In effect, they had "automated" a lot more of the sub-assembly "assembly line" aspects of the job and improved on the versatility and numbers of construction robots. (This is also part of the reason they were able/willing to reduce damage control personnel and rely on remotes to handle combat damage in their newer classes.)

Take another look at what he said above; I have highlighted the most important part, The top nations use very little manual labor in their ship and weapon construction, while lesser nations (like pre-Alliance Grayson) use much more muscle power.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue May 28, 2019 5:24 pm

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tlb wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:I get the impression that while parts are fabricated on 3D printers, some assembly may be required. Smallish, mass produced items such as MDMs, DDMs and missile pods are probably assembled by robotic systems. Larger items such as warships are probably assembled by those hardsuited workers Weber has written so much about.

I suspect that not all Honorverse 3D printers are created equal.
Some are bigger than others.
Some are faster than others.
Some have the capability to place particles or even individual atoms more precisely than others.

This last attribute differentistes the truly high tech polities (Manticore, Grayson (years after HotQ), Beawulf, SL core worlds, Andermandi) from the neobarbs such as Silesia, the Verge, Grayson (before HotQ when Honor Harrington brought all of the goodies), and the PRH.

runsforcelery wrote:The printers produce components: period. Most of the sub-assemblies (and some of the "big ticket" items, like Apollo missiles, for example) are then built "assembly line" by robotic assemblers which are permanently mated with the printers dedicated to producing their components. First World star nations (like Manticore, Beowulf, most of the League worlds, etc.) use a lot of robotics in their shipyards --- there have been quite a few references to "construction" robots, I believe. More backward star nations (like pre-Alliance Grayson) use a lot more muscle power. This is not to say that First World shipyards us no "hand-fitted" parts, but they use very, very, very few of them compared to pre-Alliance Grayson.

One of the big elements in Manticore's edge in shipbuilding and munitions production was that the SKM had improved incrementally at almost every stage of the process, including (especially) printer capabilities and better and more efficient use of robotics. In effect, they had "automated" a lot more of the sub-assembly "assembly line" aspects of the job and improved on the versatility and numbers of construction robots. (This is also part of the reason they were able/willing to reduce damage control personnel and rely on remotes to handle combat damage in their newer classes.)

Take another look at what he said above; I have highlighted the most important part, The top nations use very little manual labor in their ship and weapon construction, while lesser nations (like pre-Alliance Grayson) use much more muscle power.



Both of you are partly right and partly wrong. The are lots of those hard-suited workers in a First World shipyard someone like Manticore operates, because these guys are building really big units. An 8-9,000,000 ton freighter is a nontrivial project even for Honorverse tech, and an SD or SD(P) is even more so. At the same time, there are enormously less of those hard-suited workers than there would be in a pre-Alliance Grayson level yard because the majority of the First World star nation's workers are out there supervising robotic units that are doing the actual work. And even in a highly advanced yard, some of the work is done by actual human beings because the Honorverse assumes that truly self-aware AI was never achieved and some jobs require judgment value calls, not just jugment calls. Such jobs are very few and far between in the more advanced yards, however.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by cthia   » Thu May 30, 2019 5:24 pm

cthia
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During raids, why isn't equipment seized? Cavernous freighters with tractor beams pulling equipment inside?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by kzt   » Thu May 30, 2019 5:35 pm

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cthia wrote:During raids, why isn't equipment seized? Cavernous freighters with tractor beams pulling equipment inside?

How often do raiders achieve a zero-zero rendezvous? It puts them in a really bad spot if something happens.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by tlb   » Thu May 30, 2019 5:41 pm

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cthia wrote:During raids, why isn't equipment seized? Cavernous freighters with tractor beams pulling equipment inside?

kzt wrote:How often do raiders achieve a zero-zero rendezvous? It puts them in a really bad spot if something happens.

Also during the Havenite war, each side had sufficient of their own; it was more important (also easier) to destroy, rather than to steal.

I realize that after the Yawata Strike there is at least one Forum member that wanted Manticore to so this to the Solarian League. But Manticore did not want to be called a pirate.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by cthia   » Thu May 30, 2019 6:03 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:During raids, why isn't equipment seized? Cavernous freighters with tractor beams pulling equipment inside?

kzt wrote:How often do raiders achieve a zero-zero rendezvous? It puts them in a really bad spot if something happens.

tlb wrote:Also during the Havenite war, each side had sufficient of their own; it was more important (also easier) to destroy, rather than to steal.

I realize that after the Yawata Strike there is at least one Forum member that wanted Manticore to so this to the Solarian League. But Manticore did not want to be called a pirate.

All's fair in love and war. Even assassination, apparently.

Isn't it orders of magnitude easier and less complicated to make a rendezvous with asteroid belts? Well, at one point before they were so mothered.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by tlb   » Thu May 30, 2019 11:15 pm

tlb
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cthia wrote:All's fair in love and war. Even assassination, apparently.

If that were true, then no one would care about the Deneb Accords.

Certainly sniping as a form of assassination is fully acceptable under the rules; but spies and undercover agents, although necessary, are outside the rules - which is why they can be executed if caught.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by cthia   » Thu May 30, 2019 11:30 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:All's fair in love and war. Even assassination, apparently.

If that were true, then no one would care about the Deneb Accords.

Certainly sniping as a form of assassination is fully acceptable under the rules; but spies and undercover agents, although necessary, are outside the rules - which is why they can be executed if caught.

Indeed, it was a swipe at Haven's old spots. My apology.

I also thought heads of state are off limits to assassination. But terrorists and others are fair game. Which begs a question. When the Peeps convicted Honor in absentia, could she be legally assassinated under interstellar law?

Aaaand, can a nanite guided "man" be considered a drone?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by tlb   » Fri May 31, 2019 10:26 am

tlb
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Posts: 1067
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

cthia wrote:All's fair in love and war. Even assassination, apparently.

tlb wrote:If that were true, then no one would care about the Deneb Accords.

Certainly sniping as a form of assassination is fully acceptable under the rules; but spies and undercover agents, although necessary, are outside the rules - which is why they can be executed if caught.

cthia wrote:Indeed, it was a swipe at Haven's old spots. My apology.

I also thought heads of state are off limits to assassination. But terrorists and others are fair game. Which begs a question. When the Peeps convicted Honor in absentia, could she be legally assassinated under interstellar law?

Aaaand, can a nanite guided "man" be considered a drone?

If you search online for an answer, then you will find many different articles that do not give a clear answer. Most try to distinguish between assassination (considered bad) versus named or targeted killing (which might be considered self defense, depending on the author). In the USA, killing a head of state is only prohibited because of an executive order by President Gerald Ford.

Killing Honor during wartime is generally okay, because she is a uniformed member of the armed forces. The one part that about the nanite assassination mode being compared to a drone is that it is on auto pilot and cannot be remotely turned off; versus drones that are controlled by a remote pilot. So unlike a drone, if peace were declared then anyone harboring a nanite were have to be captured and neutralized.

PS. I should have added the provision "as long as the sniper is in the uniformed armed forces" to the statement that sniping is okay. This coincides with the debate that the use of armed drones is wrong if piloted by the CIA, but can be okay if the pilot is in the Air Force.

PPS. If the saying were true about Love, then no one could be called a cheater.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by cthia   » Fri May 31, 2019 10:56 am

cthia
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:All's fair in love and war. Even assassination, apparently.

tlb wrote:If that were true, then no one would care about the Deneb Accords.

Certainly sniping as a form of assassination is fully acceptable under the rules; but spies and undercover agents, although necessary, are outside the rules - which is why they can be executed if caught.

cthia wrote:Indeed, it was a swipe at Haven's old spots. My apology.

I also thought heads of state are off limits to assassination. But terrorists and others are fair game. Which begs a question. When the Peeps convicted Honor in absentia, could she be legally assassinated under interstellar law?

Aaaand, can a nanite guided "man" be considered a drone?

If you search online for an answer, then you will find many different articles that do not give a clear answer. Most try to distinguish between assassination (considered bad) versus named or targeted killing (which might be considered self defense, depending on the author). In the USA, killing a head of state is only prohibited because of an executive order by President Gerald Ford.

Killing Honor during wartime is generally okay, because she is a uniformed member of the armed forces. The one part that about the nanite assassination mode being compared to a drone is that it is on auto pilot and cannot be remotely turned off; versus drones that are controlled by a remote pilot. So unlike a drone, if peace were declared then anyone harboring a nanite were have to be captured and neutralized.

PS. I should have added the provision "as long as the sniper is in the uniformed armed forces" to the statement that sniping is okay. This coincides with the debate that the use of armed drones is wrong if piloted by the CIA, but can be okay if the pilot is in the Air Force.

PPS. If the saying were true about Love, then no one could be called a cheater.

Would Honor's assassin need to be in uniform? Was the attempt on her life in the restaurant by Maccabeus legal, since she was an enemy of Masada? Can three piece suits be considered uniforms if that's the prescribed attire?

Although she isn't a head of state, Steadholders may also enjoy some sort of interstellar protection from assassination.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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