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Post League Eridani

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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon May 20, 2019 8:34 pm

runsforcelery
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Location: South Carolina

cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:Even her destruction of the heavy cruisers which had struck their wedges in token of surrender would have been legally justifiable. It could not have been morally justifiable, which was the reason that she spared them after Mercedes got through to her, but legally she could have chosen not to.

Wow, very interesting stuff, RFC!

I'm going to ask a rhetorical question, because I'm sure I already know the answer, but it is still rather interesting.

Was Honor aware of the ins and outs of all of the legal mumbo jumbo on the spot? So, she could have legally destroyed those heavy cruisers, but I wonder if she was consciously aware of that, in the heat of the moment. Or was she just so frickin' steaming mad, mingled with grief, that she just didn't give a flying truck? Of course she knew it was morally wrong, but I wonder if she knew that legally she had those heavy cruisers by the balls. It seemed to me that she was in the midst of one of her death rides, but with her career -- and not her life or the lives of her crew -- on the line.

And, likewise, did her crew know that legally she could have had her way. Regardless of any moral considerations, responsibilities, or implications.



It was obvious the Alignment planted those bombs. The intelligence community immediately suspected Alignment intervention. Both Givens and Hamish immediately suspected the Alignment's handiwork. If the Solarians would have planted those bombs, they would have had no reason for their attack. Besides, it wasn't a secret that the Solarians are completely oblivious to what's really going on. And, there's no way the truth can't be found in those intact databases, whatever the case may be. The forty-six million civilian deaths is the result of a true crime of passion, someone who would continue to stab you 99 times long after you are dead. I can't think of anyone who's that pissed off. 'Ouch'! . . . 'Ouch'! . . . 'Ouuuch'!

OK! OK! OK!



Of course she knew. So did Mercedes. Mercedes wasn’t really trying to save the enemy; that was a useful byproduct of saving Honor. Not from the legal consequences but the consequences of living with herself afterward.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by kzt   » Mon May 20, 2019 8:39 pm

kzt
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tlb wrote:The orbital structures that were destroyed included much that was not military, including passenger terminals and civilian manufacturing. KZT has wondered on several occasions how Manticore could recover from having all of its hard industry destroyed.


Nah, it's easy. Like if the entire US industry was destroyed in in 1944. The Russians sell you their old, worn out industrial gear, at inflated prices. Of course, it's in mm instead of inches and in kPa vs PSI and all the manuals are in Russian, so you'll have to bring a bunch of Russian experts to run it. And to teach classes to engineers who have not done designs in metric. And it uses Russian spare parts, which of course you can't make because you have no industry. So you have to buy those from Russia, at perhaps a slight mark up.

And if you need a fuel pump for your tanks, your Russian industrial experts can just order one from you from State Factory #6 instead you having to design a pump and the tools to make it. Won't that be faster?

How long will it take before you don't have to depend on Russians to run your industry? How much of Russian military design practices will supplant US military practices? How many secret weapons will you keep from the Russians? When will you stop having to build your weapons using parts from the State Factories, as they are the qualified vendor and the assembly was built around the shape and specification of those parts?
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by cthia   » Tue May 21, 2019 2:52 am

cthia
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cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:Even her destruction of the heavy cruisers which had struck their wedges in token of surrender would have been legally justifiable. It could not have been morally justifiable, which was the reason that she spared them after Mercedes got through to her, but legally she could have chosen not to.

Wow, very interesting stuff, RFC!

I'm going to ask a rhetorical question, because I'm sure I already know the answer, but it is still rather interesting.

Was Honor aware of the ins and outs of all of the legal mumbo jumbo on the spot? So, she could have legally destroyed those heavy cruisers, but I wonder if she was consciously aware of that, in the heat of the moment. Or was she just so frickin' steaming mad, mingled with grief, that she just didn't give a flying truck? Of course she knew it was morally wrong, but I wonder if she knew that legally she had those heavy cruisers by the balls. It seemed to me that she was in the midst of one of her death rides, but with her career -- and not her life or the lives of her crew -- on the line.

And, likewise, did her crew know that legally she could have had her way. Regardless of any moral considerations, responsibilities, or implications.



It was obvious the Alignment planted those bombs. The intelligence community immediately suspected Alignment intervention. Both Givens and Hamish immediately suspected the Alignment's handiwork. If the Solarians would have planted those bombs, they would have had no reason for their attack. Besides, it wasn't a secret that the Solarians are completely oblivious to what's really going on. And, there's no way the truth can't be found in those intact databases, whatever the case may be. The forty-six million civilian deaths is the result of a true crime of passion, someone who would continue to stab you 99 times long after you are dead. I can't think of anyone who's that pissed off. 'Ouch'! . . . 'Ouch'! . . . 'Ouuuch'!

OK! OK! OK!



runsforcelery wrote:Of course she knew. So did Mercedes. Mercedes wasn’t really trying to save the enemy; that was a useful byproduct of saving Honor. Not from the legal consequences but the consequences of living with herself afterward.

I thought as much. But I'm at least hesitant agreeing she might not have been able to live with herself afterwards. It might've displaced the awful nightmares she's been having for decades about the deaths of her own crew. IOW, a net downgrade in pain. LOL

"OUCH!"

I know, I know, we're talking about Honor.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue May 21, 2019 9:57 am

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2418
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:39 am
Location: South Carolina

kzt wrote:
tlb wrote:The orbital structures that were destroyed included much that was not military, including passenger terminals and civilian manufacturing. KZT has wondered on several occasions how Manticore could recover from having all of its hard industry destroyed.


Nah, it's easy. Like if the entire US industry was destroyed in in 1944. The Russians sell you their old, worn out industrial gear, at inflated prices. Of course, it's in mm instead of inches and in kPa vs PSI and all the manuals are in Russian, so you'll have to bring a bunch of Russian experts to run it. And to teach classes to engineers who have not done designs in metric. And it uses Russian spare parts, which of course you can't make because you have no industry. So you have to buy those from Russia, at perhaps a slight mark up.

And if you need a fuel pump for your tanks, your Russian industrial experts can just order one from you from State Factory #6 instead you having to design a pump and the tools to make it. Won't that be faster?

How long will it take before you don't have to depend on Russians to run your industry? How much of Russian military design practices will supplant US military practices? How many secret weapons will you keep from the Russians? When will you stop having to build your weapons using parts from the State Factories, as they are the qualified vendor and the assembly was built around the shape and specification of those parts?



You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them. You need fittings in centimeters and meters? Fine, program your printers to produce them in metrics. You need them in imperial measure? Fine, program your printers to produce them in inches and feet. (Of course, that particular problem doesn't exist. Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.) You need molycirc spares for your existing starships? Fine, tell the nannie farm what you need and churn them out.

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue May 21, 2019 10:21 am

TFLYTSNBN
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1700
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

runsforcelery wrote:
kzt wrote:

Nah, it's easy. Like if the entire US industry was destroyed in in 1944. The Russians sell you their old, worn out industrial gear, at inflated prices. Of course, it's in mm instead of inches and in kPa vs PSI and all the manuals are in Russian, so you'll have to bring a bunch of Russian experts to run it. And to teach classes to engineers who have not done designs in metric. And it uses Russian spare parts, which of course you can't make because you have no industry. So you have to buy those from Russia, at perhaps a slight mark up.

And if you need a fuel pump for your tanks, your Russian industrial experts can just order one from you from State Factory #6 instead you having to design a pump and the tools to make it. Won't that be faster?

How long will it take before you don't have to depend on Russians to run your industry? How much of Russian military design practices will supplant US military practices? How many secret weapons will you keep from the Russians? When will you stop having to build your weapons using parts from the State Factories, as they are the qualified vendor and the assembly was built around the shape and specification of those parts?



You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them. You need fittings in centimeters and meters? Fine, program your printers to produce them in metrics. You need them in imperial measure? Fine, program your printers to produce them in inches and feet. (Of course, that particular problem doesn't exist. Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.) You need molycirc spares for your existing starships? Fine, tell the nannie farm what you need and churn them out.

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.


I still favor adopting the intentions of Haven in Flag in Exile.

Send out raiding squadrons with massive fleet trains of freighters and orbital deconstruction experts. Seize control of a system. Then instead of just nuking all of the orbital infrastructure, dismantle all of the fabrication modules, pack them up into freighters then after nuking everything that you do not want, haul them back to Manticore and Grayson.


Of course the SKM and GSN might offer the local authorities a deal that they can't refuse. They can give you a reasonable percentage of their industrial infrastructure, say 10%, and in return the SKM and GSN will not nuke everything else.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by tlb   » Tue May 21, 2019 11:01 am

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1135
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them. You need fittings in centimeters and meters? Fine, program your printers to produce them in metrics. You need them in imperial measure? Fine, program your printers to produce them in inches and feet. (Of course, that particular problem doesn't exist. Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.) You need molycirc spares for your existing starships? Fine, tell the nannie farm what you need and churn them out.

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.

We did postulate that this was how manufacturing worked:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9838&start=100

But that cannot be the complete answer because we still have construction crew in spacesuits working shipyards and you cannot do maintenance that way. In both On Basilisk Station and The Short Victorious War we have examples of ships being worked on by construction crews.
TFLYTSNBN wrote:I still favor adopting the intentions of Haven in Flag in Exile.

You may be the only one that believes that Manticore and Grayson should turn to piracy and extortion.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by kzt   » Tue May 21, 2019 11:19 am

kzt
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Posts: 10081
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them.

So why do the Havenites complain about the advanced technology of the RMN? Why don't they just produce duplicates of the RMN's missiles instead of clumsy, oversized ones? You just cut apart the sample missile components apart one atom at a time under what amounts to sophisticated microscopes and program your printers to reproduce them exactly. If everybody's equipment can make everyone else's gear, why don't they? Why are some planets noted as backwards when this has been the state of the art of hundred of years?
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by Joat42   » Tue May 21, 2019 11:42 am

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Posts: 1529
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Location: Sweden

kzt wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them.

So why do the Havenites complain about the advanced technology of the RMN? Why don't they just produce duplicates of the RMN's missiles instead of clumsy, oversized ones? You just cut apart the sample missile components apart one atom at a time under what amounts to sophisticated microscopes and program your printers to reproduce them exactly. If everybody's equipment can make everyone else's gear, why don't they? Why are some planets noted as backwards when this has been the state of the art of hundred of years?

Take for example metallurgy. You can know the exact ratios that goes into an alloy - that doesn't necessarily you can just throw everything into a smelter and get a alloy with the exact same properties, you will get an alloy just not the one you wanted.

Even with nanites for example, you can not just mash atoms together to get the preferred crystalline structure that has an inherent strength magnitudes bigger than normal. You could probably use the nanites as helpers in growing the structure - which mean we end up with what rfc told us, ie. programming is needed to get what you want.

That's my understanding on how it works anyway.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by cthia   » Tue May 21, 2019 11:50 am

cthia
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

kzt wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them.

So why do the Havenites complain about the advanced technology of the RMN? Why don't they just produce duplicates of the RMN's missiles instead of clumsy, oversized ones? You just cut apart the sample missile components apart one atom at a time under what amounts to sophisticated microscopes and program your printers to reproduce them exactly. If everybody's equipment can make everyone else's gear, why don't they? Why are some planets noted as backwards when this has been the state of the art of hundred of years?

Before you can program a computer to do something, you need to know how to do it yourself. Haven can't program their computer to do something if they haven't figured it out for themselves, the long way. Reverse engineering isn't as easy as you think. Get one simple thing wrong, it all fails.

You can't write an algorithm to tell the computer how to get to the store, if you don't know the way yourself. Remember turtle graphics?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by cthia   » Tue May 21, 2019 11:58 am

cthia
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Posts: 11274
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

tlb wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them. You need fittings in centimeters and meters? Fine, program your printers to produce them in metrics. You need them in imperial measure? Fine, program your printers to produce them in inches and feet. (Of course, that particular problem doesn't exist. Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.) You need molycirc spares for your existing starships? Fine, tell the nannie farm what you need and churn them out.

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.

We did postulate that this was how manufacturing worked:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9838&start=100

But that cannot be the complete answer because we still have construction crew in spacesuits working shipyards and you cannot do maintenance that way. In both On Basilisk Station and The Short Victorious War we have examples of ships being worked on by construction crews.
TFLYTSNBN wrote:I still favor adopting the intentions of Haven in Flag in Exile.

You may be the only one that believes that Manticore and Grayson should turn to piracy and extortion.


Well, if it is continued in the right mindset and doesn't degenerate into graft or outright piracy, it could loosely be described as the barter system. If I were a system governor, like Hypatia or in the Sol system, trading something you are about to lose anyway to keep centuries of investment may be a good thing. The trade probably shouldn't directly include life.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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