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Uncompromising Honor chatter

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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by cthia   » Sun May 05, 2019 4:50 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:It's not so clear cut in every single case. The board has pretty sweeping powers. They usually have a more top down view of things, and the manager, founder, owner, has a more bottom up view.

The board oversees the decisions taken by management, and alters them according to plans, goals, and the strategic direction and focus of the company. Oftentimes this relationship has inherent conflicts built-in, and it's supposed to. It's set up to be a healthy relationship of checks and balances. (Do recall the management problems and issues of Apple about certain technical aspects of the OS, most notably its looks. Jobs always hated small screen devices less than 10in because of the user's app experience. After Steve Jobs, I had friends -- who once were considering dumping their stock -- suddenly excited about hanging on to it, because Jobs was bullish on investors but amenable to shareholders. Turned out to be a boon that we stayed in.)

Board members are oftentimes part owners themselves with stock options and their own net worth. I assume the Alignment operates on a cash flow basis as every other consortium. Therefore, they have a large input in decisions made about the company. Ultimately, it's rather hard to say without the author's input regarding the overall structure of the "consortium."

Certainly the Detweiler name is vastly important to the cause, and there is power inherent in that name. But structurally, we may find the truth isn't so clear cut.

I think you are confusing the LRPB with a board of directors, which functions as you say above. If that is what the LRPB did, then it would not be involved in arranging marriages for members of the genetic lines nor culling individuals, like Francesca, for quality of life reasons; because those issues are too low-level for an executive board.

I think the LRPB is a group of geneticists that are tasked with policing and improving the genetic lines. Here is something from chapter 5 of Torch of Freedom:
There were moments when Jack suspected the Long-Range Planning Board had lost sight of that. Hardly surprising if it had, he supposed. The Board was responsible not simply for overseeing the careful, continually ongoing development of the genomes under its care, but also for providing the Alignment with the tactical abilities its strategies and operations required. Under the circumstances, it was hardly surprising that it should continually strive for a greater degree of . . . quality control.
And at least both the LRPB and the General Strategy Board recognized the need to make the best possible use out of any positive advantages the law of unintended consequences might throw up. Which explained why Zachariah's unique, almost instinctual ability to combine totally separate research concepts into unanticipated nuggets of development had been so carefully nourished once it was recognized. Which, in turn, explained how he had wound up as one of Chernevsky's right hands in the Alignment's naval R&D branch.

That seems to say the LRPB and General Strategy Board are separate and perhaps equal.

Could be that The General Strategy Board is a department of the LRPB. They'd certainly have to work closely together. From the beginning of its roots in history, arranging marriages is long range planning.

Do note:
Long range planning is synonymous with Board of Directors.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by cthia   » Sun May 05, 2019 6:12 am

cthia
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Addendum to previous post:

It really must be said that without the author's input, many things are left unclear and subject to speculation. I'd really like to know the actual structure and distribution of power between Leonard Detweiler, his sons, The LRPB, the General Strategy Board and the Renaissance Factor. Up to and including the financial structure And how these finances may affect the flow of power. A "company" with a Board of Directors can be a complicated brute. Founders have been fired. Please keep in mind my example . . .

"Steve Jobs was famously shown the door by Apple back in 1985, following a dispute about strategy that pitted him against the very CEO he himself had hired away from PepsiCo."

People can be summarily dismissed from companies they are responsible for creating. The love of money is at the root of all evil. To the board, it is business as usual. They would not particular hold the values or passions of the founder. Particularly, his need for revenge. That green-eyed monster is what brought Khan down.

"We have Genesis sir. We don't need Kirk."

Likewise, the MA has the fracturing of the League in its hands. They don't need to cultivate any lingering hatred for Beowulf.

If Daddy Daycare's clones don't find a way to let daddy's hatred and need for revenge go the way of the dinosaurs, it could be their ultimate downfall. The LRPB simply can not be oblivious to that fact, and IMO, is fuel for an inevitable conflict of interest.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by tlb   » Sun May 05, 2019 8:26 am

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tlb wrote:I think you are confusing the LRPB with a board of directors, which functions as you say above. If that is what the LRPB did, then it would not be involved in arranging marriages for members of the genetic lines nor culling individuals, like Francesca, for quality of life reasons; because those issues are too low-level for an executive board.

I think the LRPB is a group of geneticists that are tasked with policing and improving the genetic lines. Here is something from chapter 5 of Torch of Freedom:
There were moments when Jack suspected the Long-Range Planning Board had lost sight of that. Hardly surprising if it had, he supposed. The Board was responsible not simply for overseeing the careful, continually ongoing development of the genomes under its care, but also for providing the Alignment with the tactical abilities its strategies and operations required. Under the circumstances, it was hardly surprising that it should continually strive for a greater degree of . . . quality control.
And at least both the LRPB and the General Strategy Board recognized the need to make the best possible use out of any positive advantages the law of unintended consequences might throw up. Which explained why Zachariah's unique, almost instinctual ability to combine totally separate research concepts into unanticipated nuggets of development had been so carefully nourished once it was recognized. Which, in turn, explained how he had wound up as one of Chernevsky's right hands in the Alignment's naval R&D branch.

That seems to say the LRPB and General Strategy Board are separate and perhaps equal.

cthia wrote:Could be that The General Strategy Board is a department of the LRPB. They'd certainly have to work closely together. From the beginning of its roots in history, arranging marriages is long range planning.

Do note:
Long range planning is synonymous with Board of Directors.

I do not understand how you can ignore the clear textual evidence of what the LRPB does for Mesa and say it must be something else because the words comprising its name have a particular resonance for you. A board of Directors would not micromanage the way that the LRPB does.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by cthia   » Sun May 05, 2019 5:13 pm

cthia
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:I think you are confusing the LRPB with a board of directors, which functions as you say above. If that is what the LRPB did, then it would not be involved in arranging marriages for members of the genetic lines nor culling individuals, like Francesca, for quality of life reasons; because those issues are too low-level for an executive board.

I think the LRPB is a group of geneticists that are tasked with policing and improving the genetic lines. Here is something from chapter 5 of Torch of Freedom:
There were moments when Jack suspected the Long-Range Planning Board had lost sight of that. Hardly surprising if it had, he supposed. The Board was responsible not simply for overseeing the careful, continually ongoing development of the genomes under its care, but also for providing the Alignment with the tactical abilities its strategies and operations required. Under the circumstances, it was hardly surprising that it should continually strive for a greater degree of . . . quality control.
And at least both the LRPB and the General Strategy Board recognized the need to make the best possible use out of any positive advantages the law of unintended consequences might throw up. Which explained why Zachariah's unique, almost instinctual ability to combine totally separate research concepts into unanticipated nuggets of development had been so carefully nourished once it was recognized. Which, in turn, explained how he had wound up as one of Chernevsky's right hands in the Alignment's naval R&D branch.

That seems to say the LRPB and General Strategy Board are separate and perhaps equal.

cthia wrote:Could be that The General Strategy Board is a department of the LRPB. They'd certainly have to work closely together. From the beginning of its roots in history, arranging marriages is long range planning.

Do note:
Long range planning is synonymous with Board of Directors.

tlb wrote:I do not understand how you can ignore the clear textual evidence of what the LRPB does for Mesa and say it must be something else because the words comprising its name have a particular resonance for you. A board of Directors would not micromanage the way that the LRPB does.

Companies have been having problems with boards micromanaging since the beginning of time. Why? Among other reasons, there is some real overlap in their bailiwick and a lack of confidence in the managers. And, well, a lack of communication and possibly even a lack of agreement and/or understanding of the direction of the company. Board members are the ones hired to put plans in motion, to get the ball rolling. To get things done. The Alignment is not a traditional company, and there may be a clear lack of policy and procedures. There may be no appropriate policies or procedures delineating the roles between the staff and the board, and what decisions are to be made by who. Sometimes there is real overlap. But yes, I could also be quite wrong about the LRPB. At any rate, conditions are ripe for a conflict of interest. Heck, someone should already be getting their ass chewed out over the latest abortion at Beowulf.

From the textev you were so kind to include, but I chose to highlight a different part . . .
The Board was responsible not simply for overseeing the careful, continually ongoing development of the genomes under its care, but also for providing the Alignment with the tactical abilities its strategies and operations required.
Which could represent something totally different than what I imagine. At any rate, an operation as far reaching as the Alignment has to have some direction and focus. Whether those in charge of that direction and focus is called a Board of Directors or no, as Shakespeare's rose, any name would smell as sweet. Do you think the Detweiler family is responsible for the bailiwick usually handled by a Board of Directors? Making them both founders and directors? They are Alpha. They may think they can do it. Or, is one of the clones responsible for it alone. If so, it would definitely have to be Collin. If a lone clone carries the weight, then if he dies, the direction of the company is lost, since the responsibility isn't spread out.

As far as this is concerned, no way would I bet on myself that I got any of it right. And I'd love the author's input on the matter as to the true nature and structure of all entities involved. Leonard Detweiler, The LRPB, The General Strategy Board, and the Renaissance Factor. And definitely its financial structure, and, well, how Daddy Daycare's death has affected the entire shebang.

But, whatever the actual structure, I don't take for granted where the true power lies. We both may find it surprising. One thing is for certain, the true power lies in one of the entities. If it isn't the clones, conditions are ripe for a conflict. Even if it is the clones, conditions are ripe for a conflict.

****** *

Happy for Carmichael's safety, but how did he get out?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by cthia   » Sun May 05, 2019 5:39 pm

cthia
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Posts: 13177
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

The nukes exploded on Mesa and blamed on Tenth Fleet should be easy to prove or disprove in the Honorverse, since the materials used in the bomb has a unique signature, which leads back to the manufacturer.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by tlb   » Sun May 05, 2019 6:59 pm

tlb
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Posts: 2080
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There were moments when Jack suspected the Long-Range Planning Board had lost sight of that. Hardly surprising if it had, he supposed. The Board was responsible not simply for overseeing the careful, continually ongoing development of the genomes under its care, but also for providing the Alignment with the tactical abilities its strategies and operations required. Under the circumstances, it was hardly surprising that it should continually strive for a greater degree of . . . quality control.
And at least both the LRPB and the General Strategy Board recognized the need to make the best possible use out of any positive advantages the law of unintended consequences might throw up. Which explained why Zachariah's unique, almost instinctual ability to combine totally separate research concepts into unanticipated nuggets of development had been so carefully nourished once it was recognized. Which, in turn, explained how he had wound up as one of Chernevsky's right hands in the Alignment's naval R&D branch.

cthia wrote:Companies have been having problems with boards micromanaging since the beginning of time. Why? Among other reasons, there is some real overlap in their bailiwick and a lack of confidence in the managers. And, well, a lack of communication and possibly even a lack of agreement and/or understanding of the direction of the company. Board members are the ones hired to put plans in motion, to get the ball rolling. To get things done. The Alignment is not a traditional company, and there may be a clear lack of policy and procedures. There may be no appropriate policies or procedures delineating the roles between the staff and the board, and what decisions are to be made by who. Sometimes there is real overlap. But yes, I could also be quite wrong about the LRPB. At any rate, conditions are ripe for a conflict of interest. Heck, someone should already be getting their ass chewed out over the latest abortion at Beowulf.

From the textev you were so kind to include, but I chose to highlight a different part . . .
The Board was responsible not simply for overseeing the careful, continually ongoing development of the genomes under its care, but also for providing the Alignment with the tactical abilities its strategies and operations required.
Which could represent something totally different than what I imagine. At any rate, an operation as far reaching as the Alignment has to have some direction and focus. Whether those in charge of that direction and focus is called a Board of Directors or no, as Shakespeare's rose, any name would smell as sweet. Do you think the Detweiler family is responsible for the bailiwick usually handled by a Board of Directors? Making them both founders and directors? They are Alpha. They may think they can do it. Or, is one of the clones responsible for it alone. If so, it would definitely have to be Collin. If a lone clone carries the weight, then if he dies, the direction of the company is lost, since the responsibility isn't spread out.

As far as this is concerned, no way would I bet on myself that I got any of it right. And I'd love the author's input on the matter as to the true nature and structure of all entities involved. Leonard Detweiler, The LRPB, The General Strategy Board, and the Renaissance Factor. And definitely its financial structure, and, well, how Daddy Daycare's death has affected the entire shebang.

But, whatever the actual structure, I don't take for granted where the true power lies. We both may find it surprising. One thing is for certain, the true power lies in one of the entities. If it isn't the clones, conditions are ripe for a conflict. Even if it is the clones, conditions are ripe for a conflict.

I grant the problem that a Board of Directors might micromanage, but I do not think they would have that micromanagement written into their job description as Jack describes.

My take on the part about providing tactical abilities is such things as providing the spies with real slave numbers on their tongues.

You suggested that the General Strategy Board might be subordinate to the LRPB. My only counter to that is somewhat weak and depends on how precise RFC is with his language: he wrote "both the LRPB and the General Strategy Board recognized the need" and if the GSB is subordinate to the LRSP then the highlighted words are unnecessary, because the GSB would have to respond to the priorities of the LRSP. That word construction aligned with my belief that the LRPB was a genetics board and reinforced my belief that they were separate.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by cthia   » Sun May 05, 2019 9:54 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:I grant the problem that a Board of Directors might micromanage, but I do not think they would have that micromanagement written into their job description as Jack describes.
Neither do I, and I realized I failed to state as much only after the post had made its downward translation. I also wanted to allow for the fact that the entire Detweiler structure is anything but a "traditional" "company."


tlb wrote:My take on the part about providing tactical abilities is such things as providing the spies with real slave numbers on their tongues.
Brilliant guess, whether its true or not.

tlb wrote:You suggested that the General Strategy Board might be subordinate to the LRPB. My only counter to that is somewhat weak and depends on how precise RFC is with his language: he wrote "both the LRPB and the General Strategy Board recognized the need" and if the GSB is subordinate to the LRSP then the highlighted words are unnecessary, because the GSB would have to respond to the priorities of the LRSP. That word construction aligned with my belief that the LRPB was a genetics board and reinforced my belief that they were separate.
I see your point and I personally wouldn't say that your counter is weak. After all, my take on it is dependent on words as well. "Long Range" and "General."

My views are also derived from the knowledge of how a business works. Long ago I wondered where Leonard got the small fortune that was surely needed to kick things off, and support it until dividends elsewhere began to pay off. I know the slaves and a lot of what was going on behind the scenes at Mesa, went a long way towards funding his delusions of grandeur. But I assume he sought help from outside parties. Financially viable outside parties, who became shareholders. Shareholders implies a Board of Directors who looks out for their investment, by looking out for the company. Yatta yatta yatta. Board of Directors are not normally founders, for obvious reasons not only surrounding a conflict of interest. Perhaps I got it completely switched at birth about the roles of the LRPB and the General Strategy Board. And perhaps the General Strategy Board is the Board of Directors. Though "General" throws me off. And as I said, "Long Range Planning" is exactly the definition of a Board of Directors.

Albeit, I assume it is possible Leonard didn't offer any stock options, shareholders or anything of the like. If not, he was a filthy rich SOB, and certainly if it stayed that way. That whole shebang has to have cost a freighter full of gold-pressed latinum carrying pods with more of the stuff.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by cthia   » Tue May 07, 2019 3:34 am

cthia
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So, four of the Mandarins were arrested and I suppose will be extradited and given a free ride back to the Haven sector to stand trial for their crimes. I was expecting them to be questioned and one or more of them to drop dead. Was it Kolokoltsov who kept asking where Omusupe was to be found? For a minute there, I thought she'd gotten ghost. Recalled by the MA just in the nick of time. I was also looking for the same from Audrey O'Hanrahan.

Perhaps when the Manties question them, someone will drop dead and the nanites will be found.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by Dauntless   » Tue May 07, 2019 9:19 am

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except perhaps for that missing one, and she always struck me as actually having 2 brain cells to rub together unlike the others, I don't expect them to end up dead. at least not by nanites.

the Malign didn't need all of the mandarin's to have nanites. arguably they didn't need any, they knew the mandarins would doom themselves without any external help.

I'm sure they could have arranged an accident for the admiral but suicide just added a touch of flair to their plan.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor chatter
Post by cthia   » Tue May 07, 2019 12:40 pm

cthia
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Dauntless wrote:except perhaps for that missing one, and she always struck me as actually having 2 brain cells to rub together unlike the others, I don't expect them to end up dead. at least not by nanites.

the Malign didn't need all of the mandarin's to have nanites. arguably they didn't need any, they knew the mandarins would doom themselves without any external help.

I'm sure they could have arranged an accident for the admiral but suicide just added a touch of flair to their plan.


It's just that I recall lots of speculation in the forum whether a Mandarin was actually a Malign agent. I simply thought we were going to find out for certain. It's rather humorous the Mandarins were so arrogant and bassackwards that the Malign didn't need to waste nanites on them. They were puppets on a string without the need to do so, and easily played like a fiddle.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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