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Wormholes & the New Solaruan League

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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:54 am

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kzt wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:I do not believe that the actual value or cost of the infrastructure is equal to decades worth of system GDP.

I can only plead that I relied upon one David Weber for the cost.

Economics is the weakest part of the Honorverse and always has been.



Decades of capital investment, yes.
Decades of GDP, no.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:58 am

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Erls wrote:I think the pace at which the wormholes located in the SL are returned to SL usage/ownership will be based upon the system governments each WH is located in. The reason being, I am 99% certain that Manticore is going to demand as part of the peace that the SL renounce in perpetuity any claim of ownership over wormholes located within its borders. The SL will have to renounce the ability to levy tariffs on the wormholes, however will be allowed to have SL flagged ships use them for free and require member nations to give a 'Most Favored Nation' status to all other SL members.

In short, Manticore is going to demand that ownership of the wormholes be transferred to the systems in which they are located. If those system governments meet certain requirements, Manticore will transfer control of the wormhole back to that system. Depending upon the location and value to the SEM of that particular bridge, Manticore will likely negotiate an economic treaty of one sort or another for that system's shipping and SEM shipping. The more important the bridge is to the SEM's network, the better deal the system gets.

And, of course, there will probably be various deals made regarding the SEMs obligations to defend the local ownership of a wormhole as well as the SEMs rights to re-take control in the event the local system (or SL) does certain things.



The SEM is going to advocate vigorously for all wormhole terminae to be deemed the property of the local systems rather than the SL. The local systems with terminae who are not yet independent will be encouraged to declare their independance by offers of economic and military alliance.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by tlb   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:21 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:The SEM is going to advocate vigorously for all wormhole terminae to be deemed the property of the local systems rather than the SL. The local systems with terminae who are not yet independent will be encouraged to declare their independance by offers of economic and military alliance.

I see no reason why the SEM, having forced a new constitution on the SL, would encourage any of the core worlds to leave. If you are only talking about the Verge who are not full members of the SL anyway, then I am in partial agreement.

The problem that we can see, from what RFC has shown us, is that the Renaissance Factor is out there and it hopes to snap up systems shed from the SL. If Manticore can create a strong alliance, then that is one counter balance; but a strong SL based on its core worlds is another.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:48 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:The SEM is going to advocate vigorously for all wormhole terminae to be deemed the property of the local systems rather than the SL. The local systems with terminae who are not yet independent will be encouraged to declare their independance by offers of economic and military alliance.


I don't think the SEM is going to advocate for further secessions. There would be little benefit and a host of negatives as far as galactic perceptions are concerned.

For reference, the history of the Zunker Terminus:

A Rising Thunder
Chapter Three wrote:
The ZSN wasn’t much as navies went. There were several reasons for that, and one was that the Zunker System’s nominal sovereignty had depended for the last T-decade and a half or so upon a delicate balancing act between the Star Kingdom of Manticore and the Solarian League. The Office of Frontier Security’s local commissioners had cast greedy eyes upon the Zunker System ever since the wormhole terminus associated with it had been discovered, but the terminus was the next best thing to six and a half light-hours from the system primary. That put it well outside Zunker’s territorial space, which meant simply grabbing off the star system wouldn’t necessarily have given OFS control of the terminus … especially since its other end lay in the Idaho System.

In point of fact, the “Zunker Terminus” had been discovered by a survey crew operating out of Idaho seventeen T-years earlier. And Idaho, unlike Zunker, lay only seventy-two light-years from the Manticore Binary System—three weeks’ hyper flight for a merchant ship from the Manticoran Wormhole Junction. Actually, the survey ship had been Manticoran, not Idahoan, although it had been under charter to the Idaho government at the time. Prior to the discovery of the Idaho Hyper Bridge, Idaho had been a relative backwater, completely overshadowed by the bustling trade and massive economy of its Manticoran neighbor and fellow member of the Manticoran alliance.

For Zunker, whose existence had always been even more hand-to-mouth than that of many other Verge star systems, the consequences had been profound. The hyper bridge between it and Idaho was over four hundred light-years long, and the system lay roughly a hundred and ninety light-years from the Sol System and just over a hundred and fifty light-years from Beowulf. In fact, it lay almost directly between Beowulf and Asgerd, closing the gap between the Beowulf Terminus of the Manticore Wormhole Junction and the Andermani Empire’s Asgerd-Durandel Hyper Bridge. That had turned both Zunker and Idaho into important feeder systems for the ever more heavily traveled Manticoran Wormhole Junction.

The sudden influx of so much traffic, and the kind of cash flow that went with it, dwarfed anything Zunker had ever imagined … and it had turned out to be a mixed blessing. The cascade of credits and the frenzied construction of shipping and support structures for the traffic that produced it had fueled an economic boom such as no Zunkeran had ever dreamed was possible. Over the last fifteen T-years, something like decent medical care, a proper educational system, and the beginning of true prosperity had sprouted in Lieutenant Tilborch’s home star system. Yet that same abundance of cash had inevitably attracted the avarice of the Office of Frontier Security and its transstellar “friends.”

Unfortunately for OFS, Idaho had no desire to do business with yet another tentacle of the OFS/corporate monstrosity. So when Frontier Security started sniffing around Zunker, Idaho mentioned the sudden upsurge in Solarian compassion and philanthropic urges to its neighbors (and allies) in Manticore. And those neighbors (and allies) in Manticore had intimated to Permanent Senior Undersecretary of the Treasury Brian Sullivan, Agatá Wodoslawski’s immediate predecessor, that Solarian transit fees through any of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction’s many termini might well experience an inexplicable upsurge if anything unfortunate were to happen to the Zunker System.

The result was an official Solarian consulate in Effingham, Zunker’s capital city, an equally official OFS observation post right next door to it, and a clear understanding that although the League would be permitted influence in Zunker, it would not be allowed the sort of puppetmaster control it exercised in so many other “independent” star systems. As a sort of quid pro quo for the League’s … restraint, it was understood that Zunker fell ultimately under Solarian “protection,” rather than Manticoran. The terminus itself, on the other hand, was granted Idahoan extraterritoriality, recognized by both Manticore and the League, although Prime Minister Cromarty of Manticore had insisted that the Zunker System government receive one third of all transit-fee revenues it generated.


NOTE 1: The Zunker Terminus is outside Zunker's territorial limit. They have no actual claim on the terminus other than being the closest inhabited system. (At least the Zunker Terminus is in the Zunker star system, unlike the Lynx terminus of the MWHJ.)

Without some serious research, I can't be positive that, other than the anomaly of The Twins, there is any Terminus closer than about twice the host star's hyper-limit to the star's hyper-limit; but that is the impression I get. Also Felix, Lynx, The Twins, Gregor(?), etc, suggest that a significant percentage of Termini are in uninhabited systems. Those Termini belong to whoever discovered them (or in the case of Felix, whoever holds title to the entire star system.)

Even in inhabited systems, like Zunker, the discoverers can claim ownership and are NOT required by precedent to share revenue with the system's inhabitants.

NOTE 2: PM Cromarty set a precedent for any Terminus where Manticore has any influence. IIRC, there is at least one other instance in A Rising Thunder where Manticore ceded a large percentage of the Transit Fees to the local system and eliminated the cut paid to OFS for "Protection."

I would suggest that Zunker and the other I recall are the pattern for Manticore's settlement of Terminus ownership claims.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:08 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:The SEM is going to advocate vigorously for all wormhole terminae to be deemed the property of the local systems rather than the SL. The local systems with terminae who are not yet independent will be encouraged to declare their independance by offers of economic and military alliance.


I don't think the SEM is going to advocate for further secessions. There would be little benefit and a host of negatives as far as galactic perceptions are concerned.

For reference, the history of the Zunker Terminus:

A Rising Thunder
Chapter Three wrote:
The ZSN wasn’t much as navies went. There were several reasons for that, and one was that the Zunker System’s nominal sovereignty had depended for the last T-decade and a half or so upon a delicate balancing act between the Star Kingdom of Manticore and the Solarian League. The Office of Frontier Security’s local commissioners had cast greedy eyes upon the Zunker System ever since the wormhole terminus associated with it had been discovered, but the terminus was the next best thing to six and a half light-hours from the system primary. That put it well outside Zunker’s territorial space, which meant simply grabbing off the star system wouldn’t necessarily have given OFS control of the terminus … especially since its other end lay in the Idaho System.

In point of fact, the “Zunker Terminus” had been discovered by a survey crew operating out of Idaho seventeen T-years earlier. And Idaho, unlike Zunker, lay only seventy-two light-years from the Manticore Binary System—three weeks’ hyper flight for a merchant ship from the Manticoran Wormhole Junction. Actually, the survey ship had been Manticoran, not Idahoan, although it had been under charter to the Idaho government at the time. Prior to the discovery of the Idaho Hyper Bridge, Idaho had been a relative backwater, completely overshadowed by the bustling trade and massive economy of its Manticoran neighbor and fellow member of the Manticoran alliance.

For Zunker, whose existence had always been even more hand-to-mouth than that of many other Verge star systems, the consequences had been profound. The hyper bridge between it and Idaho was over four hundred light-years long, and the system lay roughly a hundred and ninety light-years from the Sol System and just over a hundred and fifty light-years from Beowulf. In fact, it lay almost directly between Beowulf and Asgerd, closing the gap between the Beowulf Terminus of the Manticore Wormhole Junction and the Andermani Empire’s Asgerd-Durandel Hyper Bridge. That had turned both Zunker and Idaho into important feeder systems for the ever more heavily traveled Manticoran Wormhole Junction.

The sudden influx of so much traffic, and the kind of cash flow that went with it, dwarfed anything Zunker had ever imagined … and it had turned out to be a mixed blessing. The cascade of credits and the frenzied construction of shipping and support structures for the traffic that produced it had fueled an economic boom such as no Zunkeran had ever dreamed was possible. Over the last fifteen T-years, something like decent medical care, a proper educational system, and the beginning of true prosperity had sprouted in Lieutenant Tilborch’s home star system. Yet that same abundance of cash had inevitably attracted the avarice of the Office of Frontier Security and its transstellar “friends.”

Unfortunately for OFS, Idaho had no desire to do business with yet another tentacle of the OFS/corporate monstrosity. So when Frontier Security started sniffing around Zunker, Idaho mentioned the sudden upsurge in Solarian compassion and philanthropic urges to its neighbors (and allies) in Manticore. And those neighbors (and allies) in Manticore had intimated to Permanent Senior Undersecretary of the Treasury Brian Sullivan, Agatá Wodoslawski’s immediate predecessor, that Solarian transit fees through any of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction’s many termini might well experience an inexplicable upsurge if anything unfortunate were to happen to the Zunker System.

The result was an official Solarian consulate in Effingham, Zunker’s capital city, an equally official OFS observation post right next door to it, and a clear understanding that although the League would be permitted influence in Zunker, it would not be allowed the sort of puppetmaster control it exercised in so many other “independent” star systems. As a sort of quid pro quo for the League’s … restraint, it was understood that Zunker fell ultimately under Solarian “protection,” rather than Manticoran. The terminus itself, on the other hand, was granted Idahoan extraterritoriality, recognized by both Manticore and the League, although Prime Minister Cromarty of Manticore had insisted that the Zunker System government receive one third of all transit-fee revenues it generated.


NOTE 1: The Zunker Terminus is outside Zunker's territorial limit. They have no actual claim on the terminus other than being the closest inhabited system. (At least the Zunker Terminus is in the Zunker star system, unlike the Lynx terminus of the MWHJ.)

Without some serious research, I can't be positive that, other than the anomaly of The Twins, there is any Terminus closer than about twice the host star's hyper-limit to the star's hyper-limit; but that is the impression I get. Also Felix, Lynx, The Twins, Gregor(?), etc, suggest that a significant percentage of Termini are in uninhabited systems. Those Termini belong to whoever discovered them (or in the case of Felix, whoever holds title to the entire star system.)

Even in inhabited systems, like Zunker, the discoverers can claim ownership and are NOT required by precedent to share revenue with the system's inhabitants.

NOTE 2: PM Cromarty set a precedent for any Terminus where Manticore has any influence. IIRC, there is at least one other instance in A Rising Thunder where Manticore ceded a large percentage of the Transit Fees to the local system and eliminated the cut paid to OFS for "Protection."

I would suggest that Zunker and the other I recall are the pattern for Manticore's settlement of Terminus ownership claims.


The other end was Idaho, who hired Manticore to find it's wormhole, then manage it.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:17 pm

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Posts: 1488
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tlb wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:The SEM is going to advocate vigorously for all wormhole terminae to be deemed the property of the local systems rather than the SL. The local systems with terminae who are not yet independent will be encouraged to declare their independance by offers of economic and military alliance.

I see no reason why the SEM, having forced a new constitution on the SL, would encourage any of the core worlds to leave. If you are only talking about the Verge who are not full members of the SL anyway, then I am in partial agreement.

The problem that we can see, from what RFC has shown us, is that the Renaissance Factor is out there and it hopes to snap up systems shed from the SL. If Manticore can create a strong alliance, then that is one counter balance; but a strong SL based on its core worlds is another.



Can you say "strategic mobility?"

The MWJ is a force multiplier as well as an economic asset.

The SEM would gain an enormous military advantage by having wormhole terminae controlled by independant allied systems rather than SL members. The independance of these systems and their control of their associated wormholes would undermine the SL's presumption that the interstellar space outside the legally recognized territory of its member systems is its territory.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:26 pm

TFLYTSNBN
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Posts: 1488
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Weird Harold wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:The SEM is going to advocate vigorously for all wormhole terminae to be deemed the property of the local systems rather than the SL. The local systems with terminae who are not yet independent will be encouraged to declare their independance by offers of economic and military alliance.


I don't think the SEM is going to advocate for further secessions. There would be little benefit and a host of negatives as far as galactic perceptions are concerned.

For reference, the history of the Zunker Terminus:

A Rising Thunder
Chapter Three wrote:
The ZSN wasn’t much as navies went. There were several reasons for that, and one was that the Zunker System’s nominal sovereignty had depended for the last T-decade and a half or so upon a delicate balancing act between the Star Kingdom of Manticore and the Solarian League. The Office of Frontier Security’s local commissioners had cast greedy eyes upon the Zunker System ever since the wormhole terminus associated with it had been discovered, but the terminus was the next best thing to six and a half light-hours from the system primary. That put it well outside Zunker’s territorial space, which meant simply grabbing off the star system wouldn’t necessarily have given OFS control of the terminus … especially since its other end lay in the Idaho System.

In point of fact, the “Zunker Terminus” had been discovered by a survey crew operating out of Idaho seventeen T-years earlier. And Idaho, unlike Zunker, lay only seventy-two light-years from the Manticore Binary System—three weeks’ hyper flight for a merchant ship from the Manticoran Wormhole Junction. Actually, the survey ship had been Manticoran, not Idahoan, although it had been under charter to the Idaho government at the time. Prior to the discovery of the Idaho Hyper Bridge, Idaho had been a relative backwater, completely overshadowed by the bustling trade and massive economy of its Manticoran neighbor and fellow member of the Manticoran alliance.

For Zunker, whose existence had always been even more hand-to-mouth than that of many other Verge star systems, the consequences had been profound. The hyper bridge between it and Idaho was over four hundred light-years long, and the system lay roughly a hundred and ninety light-years from the Sol System and just over a hundred and fifty light-years from Beowulf. In fact, it lay almost directly between Beowulf and Asgerd, closing the gap between the Beowulf Terminus of the Manticore Wormhole Junction and the Andermani Empire’s Asgerd-Durandel Hyper Bridge. That had turned both Zunker and Idaho into important feeder systems for the ever more heavily traveled Manticoran Wormhole Junction.

The sudden influx of so much traffic, and the kind of cash flow that went with it, dwarfed anything Zunker had ever imagined … and it had turned out to be a mixed blessing. The cascade of credits and the frenzied construction of shipping and support structures for the traffic that produced it had fueled an economic boom such as no Zunkeran had ever dreamed was possible. Over the last fifteen T-years, something like decent medical care, a proper educational system, and the beginning of true prosperity had sprouted in Lieutenant Tilborch’s home star system. Yet that same abundance of cash had inevitably attracted the avarice of the Office of Frontier Security and its transstellar “friends.”

Unfortunately for OFS, Idaho had no desire to do business with yet another tentacle of the OFS/corporate monstrosity. So when Frontier Security started sniffing around Zunker, Idaho mentioned the sudden upsurge in Solarian compassion and philanthropic urges to its neighbors (and allies) in Manticore. And those neighbors (and allies) in Manticore had intimated to Permanent Senior Undersecretary of the Treasury Brian Sullivan, Agatá Wodoslawski’s immediate predecessor, that Solarian transit fees through any of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction’s many termini might well experience an inexplicable upsurge if anything unfortunate were to happen to the Zunker System.

The result was an official Solarian consulate in Effingham, Zunker’s capital city, an equally official OFS observation post right next door to it, and a clear understanding that although the League would be permitted influence in Zunker, it would not be allowed the sort of puppetmaster control it exercised in so many other “independent” star systems. As a sort of quid pro quo for the League’s … restraint, it was understood that Zunker fell ultimately under Solarian “protection,” rather than Manticoran. The terminus itself, on the other hand, was granted Idahoan extraterritoriality, recognized by both Manticore and the League, although Prime Minister Cromarty of Manticore had insisted that the Zunker System government receive one third of all transit-fee revenues it generated.


NOTE 1: The Zunker Terminus is outside Zunker's territorial limit. They have no actual claim on the terminus other than being the closest inhabited system. (At least the Zunker Terminus is in the Zunker star system, unlike the Lynx terminus of the MWHJ.)

Without some serious research, I can't be positive that, other than the anomaly of The Twins, there is any Terminus closer than about twice the host star's hyper-limit to the star's hyper-limit; but that is the impression I get. Also Felix, Lynx, The Twins, Gregor(?), etc, suggest that a significant percentage of Termini are in uninhabited systems. Those Termini belong to whoever discovered them (or in the case of Felix, whoever holds title to the entire star system.)

Even in inhabited systems, like Zunker, the discoverers can claim ownership and are NOT required by precedent to share revenue with the system's inhabitants.

NOTE 2: PM Cromarty set a precedent for any Terminus where Manticore has any influence. IIRC, there is at least one other instance in A Rising Thunder where Manticore ceded a large percentage of the Transit Fees to the local system and eliminated the cut paid to OFS for "Protection."

I would suggest that Zunker and the other I recall are the pattern for Manticore's settlement of Terminus ownership claims.



Now that the RMN has seriously kicked SLN butt, Zunker has more freedom to determine its own destiny. The purchase of licenses to build Rolland DD, Saganami C CA, Nike BC and pre Apollo SD(P)s and forts will ensure the exclusion of OFS.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:29 pm

kzt
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Posts: 9961
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Now that the RMN has seriously kicked SLN butt, Zunker has more freedom to determine its own destiny. The purchase of licenses to build Rolland DD, Saganami C CA, Nike BC and pre Apollo SD(P)s and forts will ensure the exclusion of OFS.

I'd argue that they can't buld that, but DW has essentially said that's BS, you can build anything you have plans for and enough sand.

OTOH, you know who will pay really big bucks for that license?
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:40 pm

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stewart wrote:
Not that we don't get into complex discussions here or anything, but now the question of what goods/services/specie/barter currency would be charged for wormhole/warp bridge passage. The Solaran Credit, previously the reliable currency, has taken a value hit. The NSL "might" not like paying in Grayson Austins or Mantie Dollars. There will be further "animated discussions" on the tendered currency or credits

-- Stewart


Typically, the owner or owner/operator of something gets to set what currency fees are charged in. How that decision is made depends on a lot of things.

What you charge is one thing, what the currency is you accept for the charge is another. At the moment, much international purchasing on Earth is made in the currency of the country (or group of contries like the EU) and if your own funds are held in some other currency (with your bank(s), then there are two optons. One is that you either hold or you purchase the needed amount in an account in that currency. The other is that your account is debited for the amount of required to match the purchase price in the local currency at the purchase conversion rate in effect that day (may be "close of business" or some other arrangement).

With interstellar travel putting buyers and sellers back in the situation of merchants in the age of caravans or sail powerd ocean travel, the variation between what the present exchange rate is at Manticore (outbound through the Junction) vs inbound to the Junction (though any particular terminus) will have an effect of there being "float" on the fluctiations of value of any particular currency relative to Manticorian Dollars.
It's going to be a while before Solarian Credits regain whatever the old "normal" status and valuation was prior to the problems starting with Adm. Byng and ending with the surrender of the SLN and rebuilding the SL Constitution.

Merchants/shipping companies/banks etc deal with this all the time. They often handle the conversion for their clients. They can make good money doing it (uncharge either way on the conversion rate -buying vs selling rates- and often take some small fee as well) and they get to hold account balances (in various currencies) for clients.

Manticore is probably going to charge fees in Manticorian Dollars and may or may not accept other currencies. On the other hand, they publish their rates and everybody who uses the Junction gets the fee schedules so if you are shipping XX tons of BBB through the junction by using the Sigma Draconis terminus by Beowulf and then a 2nd leg out through Gregor...well, the shipping company plugs the weights/cargo type etc for the two legs with it's rate, the prorated amount for the cargo against all other (non weight/volume) fees using the junction, adds the ship's/shipping company fee for loading and carrying said cargo....and POOF, you get a number- which you pay. It will be in whatever the shipping company quotes you.
If you haven't seen this in operation, cross any one of a lot of national (or things like the EU) boarders and use your credit card which -theoreticaly- is operating with the normal currency of your home country. Say you are from the US, yuy lunch in Canada on a day trip to Montreal and you get charged at the day rate for exchange of USD to CanD. The restaurant gets it's money in CanD. Or go from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland... Same thing.

We have seen the credit chips from Bank of New Madrid used-----that is ONE way of buffering exchange rate fluctuations in currency. Theorectialy Bank of New Madrid is providing a negotiable voucher in X currency which can be used anywhere - for that amount of X currency. If you want to lock in--and that is usually a smart thing to do in commerical shipping and international trade--you buy the ammout of the currency you need (in electronic transactions though your bank/broker and "send" that amount in the required currance to where it is needed.
The Author doesn't get into much of the exchange rates at any one time in the series just that the New Madrid chips are used as a secure way of doing it.
We won't get into the question of Manticorian Dollars va Grayson Austons vs SL Credits just like I am not going to discuss the Chinese Yuan vs the USD. As I write this, the present rate is 1 Chinces Yuan - .15 UDS (15¢ US).

The short version is anyone who wants to use a wormhole will pay what the charges are and if they have to convert currency (or barter some thing) then they will have to deal with the rates in effect where and when they do the conversion.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by kzt   » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:18 am

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Decades of capital investment, yes.
Decades of GDP, no.

Monica was decades, Manticore was centuries of investment. But I can't find the quote.
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