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Wormholes & the New Solaruan League

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Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by TangoLima   » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm

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How soon does the NSL get access to the WH network back ?
It will have to be at the least after a peace treaty and
the New Constitution. Will there be restrictions maybe a
gradual implementation ?
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by kzt   » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:00 pm

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As the SEM is kind of in desperate need of revenue they should accept whatever figleaf they can. They are trying to rebuild what has been described as decades of gross system product. So they need a loan for several years if GSP, which is going to be a killer without income.

Oh, right I forgot. No, everyone in Haven and Beowulf just agreed to donate a hundred thousand Manticoran dollars per person because they will all want to show their endless love of Manticore. Nobody will blame Manticore for killing millions of their friends and family members.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by tlb   » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:35 pm

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kzt wrote:As the SEM is kind of in desperate need of revenue they should accept whatever figleaf they can. They are trying to rebuild what has been described as decades of gross system product. So they need a loan for several years if GSP, which is going to be a killer without income.

Oh, right I forgot. No, everyone in Haven and Beowulf just agreed to donate a hundred thousand Manticoran dollars per person because they will all want to show their endless love of Manticore. Nobody will blame Manticore for killing millions of their friends and family members.

Yes, Manticore killed members of the Haven Navy; but Haven also killed members of the RMN (not sure how well that balances; but I think more defenders died in the Battle of Manticore than attackers, who were allowed to surrender).

But when did Manticore kill anyone belonging to Beowulf? The biggest death count for Beowulf was due to the bombs set by the Malign.

The Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe wasn't because we loved France and Germany (who had killed a goodly number of US citizens); but because it was in our strategic interests to do so when facing the new Soviet threat. Those countries facing the obvious threat from Malign could make the same sort of determination.

Malign directly killed millions in Beowulf and Manticore and indirectly killed many more by fomenting the war with Haven. Now that this is understood, it is much easier to move away from the hatreds engendered by that war.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by kzt   » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:46 pm

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I can assure you there will be a decent number of people who will blame Manticore for getting them involved in their war.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by tlb   » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:16 am

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kzt wrote:I can assure you there will be a decent number of people who will blame Manticore for getting them involved in their war.

That is a fair point; but I do not see why it should apply to Beowulf.

1. The driving forces for the war with the Solarian League were the Mandarins and the SLN, both provoked by agents of the Malign, as informed people on Beowulf knew very well.
2. The actual killing events on Beowulf were terrorists attacks, not acts of war; although they were loosely timed to an attack by the SLN. So even if you think that Manticore should have done more to avoid war with the Solarian League (what could that possibly be, when the Mandarins were driving the escalation), there is a disconnect between that war and the cause of those deaths.

As far as Haven goes, there is much more cause for people on both sides to hate those on the other. The only cure for this will come as people learn that the same forces who created the Yawata Strike, also systematically corrupted the political and economic processes in Haven to produce the need to conquer its neighbors. It is unfortunate for Arnold Giancola that he will be perceived as an agent of the Malign, when he was only a useful idiot in a pivotal spot.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by cthia   » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:45 am

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tlb wrote:
kzt wrote:I can assure you there will be a decent number of people who will blame Manticore for getting them involved in their war.

That is a fair point; but I do not see why it should apply to Beowulf.

1. The driving forces for the war with the Solarian League were the Mandarins and the SLN, both provoked by agents of the Malign, as informed people on Beowulf knew very well.
2. The actual killing events on Beowulf were terrorists attacks, not acts of war; although they were loosely timed to an attack by the SLN. So even if you think that Manticore should have done more to avoid war with the Solarian League (what could that possibly be, when the Mandarins were driving the escalation), there is a disconnect between that war and the cause of those deaths.

As far as Haven goes, there is much more cause for people on both sides to hate those on the other. The only cure for this will come as people learn that the same forces who created the Yawata Strike, also systematically corrupted the political and economic processes in Haven to produce the need to conquer its neighbors. It is unfortunate for Arnold Giancola that he will be perceived as an agent of the Malign, when he was only a useful idiot in a pivotal spot.

Forget it kzt. I've been trying to relay that point to tlb for centuries in the Beowulf - The Karma Suitsya thread. He just can't see that human emotion is not ruled by logic.

He's really going to have fits when I revisit that thread after company leaves, I finish the book and the plot settles in my head.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by tlb   » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:00 pm

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kzt wrote:I can assure you there will be a decent number of people who will blame Manticore for getting them involved in their war.

tlb wrote:That is a fair point; but I do not see why it should apply to Beowulf.

cthia wrote:Forget it kzt. I've been trying to relay that point to tlb for centuries in the Beowulf - The Karma Suitsya thread. He just can't see that human emotion is not ruled by logic.

Aristotle said there are three different forms of persuasion:
1. Appeal to authority
2. Appeal to rationality or logic
3. Appeal to sympathy

If people were truly rational only the second type of persuasion would be needed. Bertrand Russell once said:
Man is a rational animal — so at least I have been told. Throughout a long life I have been looked diligently for evidence in favor of this statement, but so far I have not had the good fortune to come across it.


The extent to which man is rational is a long standing philosophical debate. Perhaps I am an optimist in thinking that facts and the discussion of the implications of those facts can have an effect on popular beliefs. I do admit that it can be a long uphill, perhaps Sisyphean, task.I am interested in hearing what KZT has to say in response.

Perhaps it is not surprising that I disagree with what you say is the crux of our disagreement about Beowulf and karma.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:16 pm

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tlb wrote:
kzt wrote:I can assure you there will be a decent number of people who will blame Manticore for getting them involved in their war.

tlb wrote:That is a fair point; but I do not see why it should apply to Beowulf.

cthia wrote:Forget it kzt. I've been trying to relay that point to tlb for centuries in the Beowulf - The Karma Suitsya thread. He just can't see that human emotion is not ruled by logic.

Aristotle said there are three different forms of persuasion:
1. Appeal to authority
2. Appeal to rationality or logic
3. Appeal to sympathy

If people were truly rational only the second type of persuasion would be needed. Bertrand Russell once said:
Man is a rational animal — so at least I have been told. Throughout a long life I have been looked diligently for evidence in favor of this statement, but so far I have not had the good fortune to come across it.


The extent to which man is rational is a long standing philosophical debate. Perhaps I am an optimist in thinking that facts and the discussion of the implications of those facts can have an effect on popular beliefs. I do admit that it can be a long uphill, perhaps Sisyphean, task.I am interested in hearing what KZT has to say in response.

Perhaps it is not surprising that I disagree with what you say is the crux of our disagreement about Beowulf and karma.


I agree that rationality often has nothing to do with arguments. Look at the United Nations!

However, the leaders know the history and although most try to play games with it, they have to know that in time things can come out.

In the case of Haven and Manticore, the governments themselves released documents and took appropriate blame and agreed to go on. That made peace easy.

We don't know yet what will happen for Mesa and perhaps more important for the Sollies. When details of Buccaneer and Parthian Shot get out, a lot of people will be really ticked off.

And the new government will probably enjoy pointing out the flaws. They make themselves far more legitimate by pointing out the evils of the old government.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by cthia   » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:24 pm

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kzt wrote:I can assure you there will be a decent number of people who will blame Manticore for getting them involved in their war.

tlb wrote:That is a fair point; but I do not see why it should apply to Beowulf.

cthia wrote:Forget it kzt. I've been trying to relay that point to tlb for centuries in the Beowulf - The Karma Suitsya thread. He just can't see that human emotion is not ruled by logic.

tlb wrote:Aristotle said there are three different forms of persuasion:
1. Appeal to authority
2. Appeal to rationality or logic
3. Appeal to sympathy

If people were truly rational only the second type of persuasion would be needed. Bertrand Russell once said:
Man is a rational animal — so at least I have been told. Throughout a long life I have been looked diligently for evidence in favor of this statement, but so far I have not had the good fortune to come across it.


The extent to which man is rational is a long standing philosophical debate. Perhaps I am an optimist in thinking that facts and the discussion of the implications of those facts can have an effect on popular beliefs. I do admit that it can be a long uphill, perhaps Sisyphean, task.I am interested in hearing what KZT has to say in response.

Perhaps it is not surprising that I disagree with what you say is the crux of our disagreement about Beowulf and karma.

There is also the occasional tactic of persuasion by appealing to one's bankbook, which could actually be a subcategory of either of the above. Or the occasional persuasion of threatening the loss of life, which could also fall as a subcategory of either of the above.

Man was initially born to be a rational being. And it all went well. Then he was given woman. 'Ouch!'

tlb wrote:Perhaps I am an optimist in thinking that facts and the discussion of the implications of those facts can have an effect on popular beliefs.

And politics hasn't knocked you off that hobbyhorse yet? LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by tlb   » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:36 pm

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cthia wrote:Man was initially born to be a rational being. And it all went well. Then he was given woman. 'Ouch!'

If God had stopped after creating Adam, then man would think that he was the pinnacle of creation. So God created woman to remind him of his faults.
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