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Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread

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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:34 am

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Roguevictory wrote:
Theemile wrote:Modern Frigates


The Nat Turner class and John Brown class would like to discuss this belief with you.


Basically, those ships are training vessels. They can also beat up merchantmen, which gives them a practical use. But the only navies they can defeat in battle have seriously obsolete ships.
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:29 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:The Nat Turner class and John Brown class ....


...But the only navies they can defeat in battle have seriously obsolete ships.


You mean any Navy using SLN tech? :twisted:
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by munroburton   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:10 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:The Nat Turner class and John Brown class would like to discuss this belief with you.


Basically, those ships are training vessels. They can also beat up merchantmen, which gives them a practical use. But the only navies they can defeat in battle have seriously obsolete ships.


They were originally designed as anti-slaver hunters. In that role, they excel. They're also potentially good at reconnaissance, although they might have endurance issues. But there is no longer much of a requirement for slaver-hunting ships, since Mesa has been cut off at the head. Once the rest of their depots are eliminated, these frigates are quite limited in their usefulness.

Even as training ships - the low crew requirement means they can't train that many personnel compared to the captured ex-PNE vessels. They could still be used as simulator ships for training officers, but LACs can be used for this and are cheaper on a per-ton basis.
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:04 am

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Modern Frigates....
The Nat Turner class and John Brown class ....[/quote]
Robert_A_Woodward wrote:...But the only navies they can defeat in battle have seriously obsolete ships.

Weird Harold wrote:You mean any Navy using SLN tech? :twisted:


Really the problem with Frigates is this - you cannot hold sufficient CMs and defenses in a traditional Frigate sized hull to reliably survive a combat scenario in a laserhead environment and still carry sufficient anti-shipping weapons and decent cruise capability, without reaching the size and cost of a Destroyer.

So, to make a minimum sized surviveable, long cruise combatant in 1900, the minimum mass rose above the traditional definitions of a Frigate sized hull. Small Combat oriented destroyers also disappeared for the same reason and the minimum survivable combatant became the size of what previously was a small light cruiser, with all the mass brackets sliding up 15-20 Kilotons to accomodate, with a multifunction Destroyer becoming the smallest minimum combatant, and Light Cruisers starting ~100-120Ktons in 1900s builds.

This of course has been thrown out the window by 1920, with more size creep required to counter/mount long range munitions and pods, further making Frigates outdated in 1st tier navies.
Last edited by Theemile on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by tlb   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:33 pm

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Modern Frigates....
The Nat Turner class and John Brown class ....

This thread is going to be really long, if on each suggestion we have a debate as to whether the horse is dead or only nearly dead (so we can flog it some more).
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:09 pm

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tlb wrote:
Modern Frigates....
The Nat Turner class and John Brown class ....

This thread is going to be really long, if on each suggestion we have a debate as to whether the horse is dead or only nearly dead (so we can flog it some more).


I think all of the dead horses -- except TWTSNBN -- should be discussed vigorously; beating a dead horse is the best way to expose and identify the Maggots.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:23 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
tlb wrote:This thread is going to be really long, if on each suggestion we have a debate as to whether the horse is dead or only nearly dead (so we can flog it some more).


I think all of the dead horses -- except TWTSNBN -- should be discussed vigorously; beating a dead horse is the best way to expose and identify the Maggots.


So, in other words, we're back to square 1?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by kzt   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:25 pm

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We create a dead horse sub-forum...
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:15 am

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tlb wrote:This thread is going to be really long, if on each suggestion we have a debate as to whether the horse is dead or only nearly dead (so we can flog it some more).

There's a use in "please check these links before flogging" for dead horses - that way, we're at least minimizing Points Refuted A Thousand Times.

Re modern X ships - it'd be useful to distinguish between warships of a given role and warships of a given size, and also about the nature of exceptions given needs and uses. The Torch frigates represent an exceptional tool for an exceptional set of circumstances. And warships of traditional battleship and dreadnought tonnage ranges are alive and well - thriving even - they're just not (necessarily, centrally, by intention) filling the BB or DN roles. Frigate roles are plausibly being filled by "destroyers" and light cruisers.
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:54 pm

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Theemile wrote:Really the problem with Frigates is this - you cannot hold sufficient CMs and defenses in a traditional Frigate sized hull to reliably survive a combat scenario in a laserhead environment and still carry sufficient anti-shipping weapons and decent cruise capability, without reaching the size and cost of a Destroyer.

And they cost a significant fraction of a destroyer so even though they're still perfectly serviceable ships for some moderate anti-piracy work any navy interested in doing more wouldn't want to sink, say, 80% of the cost of a modern destroyer into a ship capable of performing maybe 40% of that destroyer's potential roles.

But a small navy just growing out of LAC-only system-defense/local anti-piracy mission might be reasonably happy adding a few frigates to their order of battle. They could provide more timely response outside the hyper limit or enable very minimal escorting or remote anti-piracy missions. With no serious naval pretensions being able to afford 5 frigates for the cost of 4 destroyers might outweigh the fact that those 4 destroyers could probably defeat 8-10 of the frigates in a stand-up fight.
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