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Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread

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Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Theemile   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:40 am

Theemile
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Posts: 3479
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Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Troy, Mi

OK, Let's list the dead horses and make the reasons why each has been talked to death, and what the final answer was. Anybody want to help?

First, the thread title. I like Stewart's "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" title, but I think it should also include a "New Readers Start Here" heading. We'll be posting links to discussions, and it would be wise to get any noobs to literally start... well, there.

Second, the rational of the thread - This forum and it's predecessors have been discussing David's universe for 20 years, with many posters (frequent or infrequent) having been part for 15 years or more, and tens of thousands of people and come and gone in that time - many with similar ideas to share. This is a place to start to understand the many ideas already posed and the responses by the author and other readers.

Third is our list of Dead Horses. To start:

Grav Lance (TWTSNBN)
Modern Frigates
Fighters
HACS (Heavy attack Craft)/Corvettes
Captured SDs (RHN/SLN)
Stiltie Marine Armor
Long Range Energy weapons (Super Grasers/Super Lasers)
The Return of the Battleship.

Anything I missed? I know there are a couple.

4th - the cover page of the thread. It should start as explaining that it is the final resting place of discussions which have been beaten to death and resurrected several times. It should include the rational to some degree. It should be a guide to newbies as to frequently posted ideas which to avoid, and where/how to find David's wisdom on his universe. As such, it should have a link to the pearls at the fifth imperium site and and older FAQ from Baen's Bar (also at the fifth imperium). Also a link to Sawa's maps and any other recommended data repository sites, as well as Baen's Bar and any usenets still around. It should then have a hyperlinked list of the dead horses to their explanation page.

5th, the Format of the explanation. I propose a separate post for each dead horse after the introductory page. It would be nice if the thread can be locked and only updated by an admin:

Each post would follow the format of:

1) Title of the Dead Horse

2) Brief Description of the idea(s) covered by posters.

3) Discussion Overview of why the horse is dead.

4) Book(s) the Solution for the Horse is discussed in

5) Links to the discussions and David's responses (if in the pearls, FAQ or Forum)



****

Any further ideas or thoughts? Please respond

- if you wish to run with the write up of a dead horse, please claim it here and run with it. Working together we can get this done quickly/
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:46 pm

George J. Smith
Commodore

Posts: 801
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:48 am
Location: Ross-on-Wye UK

Theemile wrote:OK, Let's list the dead horses and make the reasons why each has been talked to death, and what the final answer was. Anybody want to help?

First, the thread title. I like Stewart's "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" title, but I think it should also include a "New Readers Start Here" heading. We'll be posting links to discussions, and it would be wise to get any noobs to literally start... well, there.

Second, the rational of the thread - This forum and it's predecessors have been discussing David's universe for 20 years, with many posters (frequent or infrequent) having been part for 15 years or more, and tens of thousands of people and come and gone in that time - many with similar ideas to share. This is a place to start to understand the many ideas already posed and the responses by the author and other readers.

Third is our list of Dead Horses. To start:

Grav Lance (TWTSNBN)
Modern Frigates
Fighters
HACS (Heavy attack Craft)/Corvettes
Captured SDs (RHN/SLN)
Stiltie Marine Armor
Long Range Energy weapons (Super Grasers/Super Lasers)
The Return of the Battleship.

Anything I missed? I know there are a couple.


4th - the cover page of the thread. It should start as explaining that it is the final resting place of discussions which have been beaten to death and resurrected several times. It should include the rational to some degree. It should be a guide to newbies as to frequently posted ideas which to avoid, and where/how to find David's wisdom on his universe. As such, it should have a link to the pearls at the fifth imperium site and and older FAQ from Baen's Bar (also at the fifth imperium). Also a link to Sawa's maps and any other recommended data repository sites, as well as Baen's Bar and any usenets still around. It should then have a hyperlinked list of the dead horses to their explanation page.

5th, the Format of the explanation. I propose a separate post for each dead horse after the introductory page. It would be nice if the thread can be locked and only updated by an admin:

Each post would follow the format of:

1) Title of the Dead Horse

2) Brief Description of the idea(s) covered by posters.

3) Discussion Overview of why the horse is dead.

4) Book(s) the Solution for the Horse is discussed in

5) Links to the discussions and David's responses (if in the pearls, FAQ or Forum)



****

Any further ideas or thoughts? Please respond

- if you wish to run with the write up of a dead horse, please claim it here and run with it. Working together we can get this done quickly/



Treecat crewed ships
Treecat Marines & their armour
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by stewart   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:07 pm

stewart
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Posts: 715
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Location: Southern California, USA

OK, Let's list the dead horses and make the reasons why each has been talked to death, and what the final answer was. Anybody want to help?

First, the thread title. I like Stewart's "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" title, but I think it should also include a "New Readers Start Here" heading. We'll be posting links to discussions, and it would be wise to get any noobs to literally start... well, there.

Second, the rational of the thread - This forum and it's predecessors have been discussing David's universe for 20 years, with many posters (frequent or infrequent) having been part for 15 years or more, and tens of thousands of people and come and gone in that time - many with similar ideas to share. This is a place to start to understand the many ideas already posed and the responses by the author and other readers.

Third is our list of Dead Horses. To start:

Grav Lance (TWTSNBN)
Modern Frigates
Fighters
HACS (Heavy attack Craft)/Corvettes
Captured SDs (RHN/SLN)
Stiltie Marine Armor
Long Range Energy weapons (Super Grasers/Super Lasers)
The Return of the Battleship.

Anything I missed? I know there are a couple.


4th - the cover page of the thread. It should start as explaining that it is the final resting place of discussions which have been beaten to death and resurrected several times. It should include the rational to some degree. It should be a guide to newbies as to frequently posted ideas which to avoid, and where/how to find David's wisdom on his universe. As such, it should have a link to the pearls at the fifth imperium site and and older FAQ from Baen's Bar (also at the fifth imperium). Also a link to Sawa's maps and any other recommended data repository sites, as well as Baen's Bar and any usenets still around. It should then have a hyperlinked list of the dead horses to their explanation page.

5th, the Format of the explanation. I propose a separate post for each dead horse after the introductory page. It would be nice if the thread can be locked and only updated by an admin:

Each post would follow the format of:

1) Title of the Dead Horse

2) Brief Description of the idea(s) covered by posters.

3) Discussion Overview of why the horse is dead.

4) Book(s) the Solution for the Horse is discussed in

5) Links to the discussions and David's responses (if in the pearls, FAQ or Forum)



****

Any further ideas or thoughts? Please respond

- if you wish to run with the write up of a dead horse, please claim it here and run with it. Working together we can get this done quickly/[/quote]


Treecat crewed ships
Treecat Marines & their armour[/quote]


-----------------

Weaponry comparisons from alternate universes --

ex -- Starwars weapons vs Honorverss ; Startrek vs Honorverse; etc.

such discussions can (and have) proved an interesting intellectual exercise, but they are truly well flogged.

-- Stewart
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:56 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:15 am

stewart wrote:OK, Let's list the dead horses and make the reasons why each has been talked to death, and what the final answer was. Anybody want to help?

First, the thread title. I like Stewart's "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" title, but I think it should also include a "New Readers Start Here" heading. We'll be posting links to discussions, and it would be wise to get any noobs to literally start... well, there.

Second, the rational of the thread - This forum and it's predecessors have been discussing David's universe for 20 years, with many posters (frequent or infrequent) having been part for 15 years or more, and tens of thousands of people and come and gone in that time - many with similar ideas to share. This is a place to start to understand the many ideas already posed and the responses by the author and other readers.

Third is our list of Dead Horses. To start:

Grav Lance (TWTSNBN)
Modern Frigates
Fighters
HACS (Heavy attack Craft)/Corvettes
Captured SDs (RHN/SLN)
Stiltie Marine Armor
Long Range Energy weapons (Super Grasers/Super Lasers)
The Return of the Battleship.

Anything I missed? I know there are a couple.


4th - the cover page of the thread. It should start as explaining that it is the final resting place of discussions which have been beaten to death and resurrected several times. It should include the rational to some degree. It should be a guide to newbies as to frequently posted ideas which to avoid, and where/how to find David's wisdom on his universe. As such, it should have a link to the pearls at the fifth imperium site and and older FAQ from Baen's Bar (also at the fifth imperium). Also a link to Sawa's maps and any other recommended data repository sites, as well as Baen's Bar and any usenets still around. It should then have a hyperlinked list of the dead horses to their explanation page.

5th, the Format of the explanation. I propose a separate post for each dead horse after the introductory page. It would be nice if the thread can be locked and only updated by an admin:

Each post would follow the format of:

1) Title of the Dead Horse

2) Brief Description of the idea(s) covered by posters.

3) Discussion Overview of why the horse is dead.

4) Book(s) the Solution for the Horse is discussed in

5) Links to the discussions and David's responses (if in the pearls, FAQ or Forum)



****

Any further ideas or thoughts? Please respond

- if you wish to run with the write up of a dead horse, please claim it here and run with it. Working together we can get this done quickly/



Treecat crewed ships
Treecat Marines & their armour[/quote]


-----------------

Weaponry comparisons from alternate universes --

ex -- Starwars weapons vs Honorverss ; Startrek vs Honorverse; etc.

such discussions can (and have) proved an interesting intellectual exercise, but they are truly well flogged.

-- Stewart[/quote]


I hate to bring it up but David Weber himself brought up the topic of what to do with captured Sollie SDs in Uncompromising Honor.

I would also like to add the "shipping"...creating romantic relationships between characters that are not actually listed in the books.
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:01 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11274
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

ldwechsler wrote:I would also like to add the "shipping"...creating romantic relationships between characters that are not actually listed in the books.

Even the author can't realistically tell his children who to sleep with ldwechsler and man has played matchmaker for eons.

Let's not go overboard with this and try to advance our own agendas.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Erls   » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:09 pm

Erls
Commander

Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:09 pm

A gaming community I used to be an active admin in had a 'master repository' which contained all of the information a newcomer could ever have wanted. Basically, the first post was a short post that explained what the point of the post was and had a alphabetical list of all of the topics covered, with the list hyperlinked to that posts position within the thread so as new topics were needed the new title could be slid into place in the master list.

Only admins/mods could post or edit within the thread, but anyone would write a 'proposal' which, if approved by the admins/mods, would be added to the list.
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by kzt   » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:38 pm

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Posts: 9959
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

There are also a few topics that fall into the "You must push the 'I believe button'". Not that people can't discuss them, but they are pretty much the way they are because "it is so written" and arguing about it them non-productive.

An example I've been guilty of is that it is totally logical that if a pair of ships are 62 light seconds apart on real space and simultaneously translate to alpha they have to now be 1 ls apart by the logic of how hyperspace works, and by the time they reach Delta (where merchantmen travel) They are 8540 km apart from each other.

Nobody has explained how this isn't the case, but in fact it isn't the case in the honorverse because 'it is so written' that you can't intercept ships in hyper.
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:30 am

Theemile
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Posts: 3479
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Troy, Mi

While I too am exhausted from such conversations and rarely take part in them, topics like "-Shipping", "Who will play Honor in a movie", and "Who can beat whom in a fight" are a mainstay for may posters, and restricting the topics would automatically create a toxic environment, especially for new posters who are here to discuss such things - and cthia and RoseandHeather :P

As for totally dead topics, like the SLN ships ldwechsler mentioned, I think they should be included, and have their authorial tombstone (the location in which book) included in the description. Something tells me the conversation isn't done yet.

As for KZT's beyond belief "It is what the Author says it is" topics, I'm not certain how we would list them, other than that. If so, it should be a separate list than the dead horses list, but also with a description and relevant links, like the dead horse list. Such things would be space extension cords, magic barricade missiles, Hyper transit logic, and so on.

The only question is : is this going too far? we want to guide the topics to relevant issues, not dissuade conversation altogether.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by dscott8   » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:31 am

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Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:17 am

I will suggest that the Honorverse movie/TV series is now a dead horse. Why? Because the saga, while great, lacks certain elements that are needed to get studio backing:

1. No dragons.

2. No magic.

3. No significant racial conflicts.

4. Almost no sex scenes.

5. No potential to be turned into an Orlando theme park.

6. Aside from OBS, no epic battles with horrid-looking aliens.
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Re: Making a permanent "Well Flogged and Dead Horses" thread
Post by Fox2!   » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:29 pm

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Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:34 am
Location: Huntsville, AL

dscott8 wrote:(snip)

4. Almost no sex scenes.

(snip)


Let's see,

-Shower/attempted rape/beating scene between Honor and Young
-Scenes between Honor and Paul
-Scenes between Honor and Hamish (before and after their marriage)
(At least some of these have humorous interventions by Stinker).
-Scenes between Mike and ?? I remember a scene where she is thinking how much her promotions limit her ... hunting ... for bed mates, because most of the available partners are her subordinates. Pesky Article 129 again.
-Helen's seduction by Paolo.
-Hugh's seduction by Berry

"Drakaris" has nothing compared to unleashing an Apollo fire plan.
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