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Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?

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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:56 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I suspect the Beowulfan SDs were more than comparable with the Scientist-class of the SLN. True they don't have any of the tech toys that Manticore rolled out during the course of the 1st or 2nd war. But Beowulf worked quite closely with Manticore for years so I'd be surprised if their SDs weren't at least the equivalent of a 1905-PD fit of a Sphinx-class SD, if not Manticore's final pre-war design the Gryphon-class. Better optimized for laserhead combat: heavier emphasis on CMs over PDLCs, faster cycle times on both missile & CM tubes, etc.

That, and the small size of SLN SDs, would likely put the Beowulf SD at around 1.5x as capable as an SLN Scientist. And if Beowulf had done some domestic upgrades based on feedback about missile combat during even the 1st war they might be capable of taking on 2:1 odds against Scientists. But probably not 3:1 even if everybody was using SDMs.


However this SLN detachment presumably also carried Cataphract-Bs in their tubes, which outrange anything Beowulf should have.
(Unless Manticore had turned over towed pods of DDM/MDM at the last minute) The other last minute question would be whether Manticore had shared the SLN EMC/HALO data they had captured in the confrontations in Talbott; that info would make Beowulfan missiles and defenses significantly more effective with just software changes.


We have no texts, but I would agree - for some of the ships. SDs are usually designed to last 100 years (or more). No one has said anything about a recent push to update the Beowulfian SDs prior to 1921 - quite the opposite in fact. So While I wouldn't be surprised if the newest squadron was comparable with a late flight Sphinx / early Gryphon from 1900, the oldest probably were closer to King Williams or Sammthraces with 1900 upgrades.

So still better than a Scientist, by a good margin, and better maintained to boot.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by SharkHunter   » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:05 pm

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Status of the Beowulfan SDs versus the SLN? My guess is that they are measurably better, the question being "enough to win a battle?" My thought -- as an author but not in the Space Fiction space -- is that it would have been a standup fight for a while, but not an SLN victory, because none of the Beowulfan civilian leadership or SDF admiralty seem to be all that concerned about Tsang's threat.

Some of that could be that they know that Truman's forces are there as a stopper, but my read is that they weren't all that worried even when "Kingsford's lackey" showed up. Keep in mind that Beowulf has some deeply hidden contacts in both Manticore and the RoH, and that Manticore and Beowulf have positive history. They wouldn't need Apollo and all the goodies -- just a healthy supply of system defense MDMs from junction fortifications to blow the SLN SD's into dust bunnies, fed by RMN-operated EW aids.

Think of how mocking Truman was when she started speaking -- do we think that the SDF wouldn't be receiving a full take of all the information from Manticore's recon shell? albeit probably not in real-time. Any battle probably would have started with "bang bang, Tsang's flagship is dead".

The whole purpose of having the Beowulfan SDF force deployed was to avoid having another half-million dead SLN servicemen and women, ultimately forcing Tsang to go on-record with the unconstitutionality of her actions.

Thoughts?
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:55 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:<snip>

Think of how mocking Truman was when she started speaking -- do we think that the SDF wouldn't be receiving a full take of all the information from Manticore's recon shell? albeit probably not in real-time. Any battle probably would have started with "bang bang, Tsang's flagship is dead".

<snip>

Thoughts?


Agreed, chances are there was a Missile-toe or 2 aligned with Tang's Flagship's forward and back wedge aspects for several hours prior to the whole interaction. Chances are, if things escalated any further, the flagship wouldn't survive for Tang to finishing barking the Command "Fir..."
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:07 am

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Yes, someone else has decided to root against Manticore. The Mesan Alignment. They're using the attractive C-lines to form huge Cheerleading squads.

"Give us an A Give us an N Give us a Y Give us an L-A-T-E. Whattawe got? ANNIHILATE! YAAAAY!"

"Don't they know they misspelled annihilate?"

"We made them attractive. We didn't make them smart." :lol:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:23 am

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Theemile wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:<snip>

Think of how mocking Truman was when she started speaking -- do we think that the SDF wouldn't be receiving a full take of all the information from Manticore's recon shell? albeit probably not in real-time. Any battle probably would have started with "bang bang, Tsang's flagship is dead".

<snip>

Thoughts?


Agreed, chances are there was a Missile-toe or 2 aligned with Tang's Flagship's forward and back wedge aspects for several hours prior to the whole interaction. Chances are, if things escalated any further, the flagship wouldn't survive for Tang to finishing barking the Command "Fir..."
Well, not sure about the actual method, Mistletoe, or missile fire... but after lighting up just one ship and firing, I know what the condolence note should say:

to the Tsang Family: We apologize for the necessity of ruining your family member's travel plans to Manticore. We regret to inform you that the ship she was traveling on bumped into a wall of high-speed particles that removed said vehicle from operation, followed by a rapidly expanding fire in the engine compartments..." Signed... the Sigma Draconis Firefighters.

Heck, that might even make it through the SLN censors... ;-)
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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