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Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?

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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by cthia   » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:27 pm

cthia
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GloriousRuse,

I never got a chance to bring up a particular reason I find it sad you root against Manticore. You say they had it so easy, and perhaps they did in one respect. But in another, the Manties suffered terribly. Never have I known a nation that so much wanted to do the right thing, but suffering for it. I mean come on, the assassinations Beth had to live through? All of the deaths of her people and people's people? Manticore's deaths seemed to be more concentrated. There are so many of Beth's loved ones lost - several assassinated - and how many of Honor's?

Consider what they suffered at the hands of the SLN/Malign -- eating the deaths of innocent officers executed aboard ships with wedges down.

Look what they endured at the hands of the Malign. They suffered two Space Station atrocities -- blamed for a third -- simultaneously with a mass treecat genocide. Beth must have felt like she failed the 'Cats. And poor ole Honor and many others. Heck, Nimitz and other 'Cats "in the Navy" probably felt like they failed as well.

I don't see that the Manties had it all that good. Depends on how you're measuring it. The metric system has always been less human, IMO.

If the Manties really had it easy in some matters, maybe it's simply a consolation prize.


::shrug::

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by kzt   » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:30 pm

kzt
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It's not just unrealistic, it's not fun.

Book after book of 'Gordon, after your your mechanized regiment gets done shooting down their cavalry, could you check on where my dinner is?' interspersed with 'and then a miracle happened and the manties won' gets boring.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by tlb   » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:03 pm

tlb
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cthia wrote: But in another, the Manties suffered terribly. Never have I known a nation that so much wanted to do the right thing, but suffering for it.
--snip--
I don't see that the Manties had it all that good. Depends on how you're measuring it. The metric system has always been less human, IMO.

If the Manties really had it easy in some matters, maybe it's simply a consolation prize.

I understand the way you feel; but because you are so invested in the story of Honor and Manticore, I do not think you realize that others would have a letdown after Manticore and Haven became allies. In a way that ended the first story arc that had begun with OBS. It was a very interesting and engaging story that pulled you into the action, but is now over.

It seemed as though the Talbot Quadrant and Yawata Strike would be the beginning of the second story arc, where the action would shift to the Solarian League acting as an unwitting proxy of the Mesan Alignment. Truly the Manticore side took some terrible hits between Oyster Bay and the destruction of the orbitals at Beowulf. But the SLN itself was almost ineffectual; the only damage to the Grand Alliance that they directly caused were the destroyers blown up by Byng, the ships at Hypatia and the section of assembly line hit by Hasta at Beowulf. After all the build up to the confrontation with the SLN; it turned out that they were not the 800 pound gorilla, but a 90 pound weakling that could be dealt with in the action of a single book.

So now we are griping while we wait on the third story arc, where we hope that the Mesan Alliance and the Renaissance Faction will be confronted directly. Hopefully the collaboration with Eric Flint will get that going.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:41 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:It's not just unrealistic, it's not fun.

Book after book of 'Gordon, after your your mechanized regiment gets done shooting down their cavalry, could you check on where my dinner is?' interspersed with 'and then a miracle happened and the manties won' gets boring.

Don't hate us because we're industrious and chose not to waste our blessings. We're industrious because we didn't waste our money on candy. Eye candy, like the Fleet 2000 upgrades. We pay for substance, not bling. And we're rich because of the MWJ, we have favor with God.

It only seems unrealistic that a planet would do and accomplish so much with their blessings. It might be unbelievable that a government would be so altruistic and deserving, but not unrealistic. They never squandered their blessings. They never let their riches go to their heads like a certain SLN of known origin. The Wintons are truly worthy rulers, as has satisfied Honor.

If you can believe that God gave Honor her talents to defeat Burdette, then surely you can believe he found favor in Manticore as well?

Unrealistic? Not by a long shot. Goliath has siblings (SLN). Samson does too (RMN).

Let me ask you this, would you be ok with Honor being a Havenite or a Solarian?

I don't see a problem with rooting for the Havenites too, but at the expense of the deserving Manticorans? Uh uh.

And, um, who says it is boring? Every time it worked out for the Manticorans, no matter how many times, chill bumps ran down my spine. I'll never grow weary of the cavalry arriving JIT for Manticore.

It just hardly seems unrealistic that a farmer who sows all the right seeds reaps a bountiful harvest along the way.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by tlb   » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:12 pm

tlb
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cthia wrote:It only seems unrealistic that a planet would do and accomplish so much with their blessings. It might be unbelievable that a government would be so altruistic and deserving, but not unrealistic. They never squandered their blessings. They never let their riches go to their heads like a certain SLN of known origin. The Wintons are truly worthy rulers, as has satisfied Honor.

If you can believe that God gave Honor her talents to defeat Burdette, then surely you can believe he found favor in Manticore as well?

Consider another planetary system that arguably has done more for the inhabited Honorverse than any other. Surely it should be revered instead of being hated and attacked. Yet you spent considerable energy arguing that Beowulf had accumulated bad karma which would justify whatever happened to them (at least in the eyes of the League, if you were not arguing on your own behalf).

Over the centuries it has been just as industrious and has done far more for humanity than Manticore, but that did not seem to count for anything because it was back story to the main action.

The point you seem to miss is that we are really finding fault with the author's depiction of the "war" between Manticore and the Solarian League. The quotes are because after the build-up we were given, it does not even deserve being called a "squabble". In universe, this is the fault of the crackpot plan by the Mesan Alignment and we can only hope that further books will describe a foe worthy of the Grand Alliance's might.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by Tregonsee   » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:24 pm

Tregonsee
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I thought it was only me. The last few books, the Manties were getting just a bit too smug and self-righteous. The Solies, having killed off all the truly venal and stupid ones, were left with patriotic professionals trying to deal with a situation not really of their own making. I was hoping that the Solies would pull a rabbit out of their hat and set the Manties back on their heels long enough for both sides to get their act together. The Manties at this point are suffering from "Victory Disease," as were the Japanese in the first year of WW II.
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