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Manticore's new citizens

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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:18 am

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That's all brilliant-- I like the idea of clans as territorial units.

Your thoughts on the legal aspect of 'cats' telempathy is interesting too-- I wonder what the precedents are for people claiming an enraged treecat drove them to violence on the 'cat's behalf, for example? And while the way Lionheart defended the Harringtons in Treecat Wars was clearly self-defense, I wonder what the legal precedents are there, too. More than once Elizabeth or Honor thinks that it's a bad idea to have their 'cat around for a particular discussion because of how the angry treecat might react. I doubt they go around fighting humans terribly often, but how does the legal system react when they do? What if they strike first?

As for physical accommodations, I can see a sort of treecat (and Medusan?) version of the ADA being adopted. Housing-wise, maybe a one-greenhouse-per-X,000 units sort of thing? One of the things that intrigues me also is the issue of transportation and communication-- now that the 'cats can sign, they can use email like everyone else to communicate with clans on other worlds; but how do they get the equipment? How do they pay for it and maintain it? And how do they visit each other? Will they have to be paying passengers, or will there be some sort of one-'cat-per-flight-rides-free arrangement?

On the eduction front, how do you keep a 'cat from cheating on a spelling test? :lol:
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:01 am

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NortonIDaughter wrote:That's all brilliant-- I like the idea of clans as territorial units.

Your thoughts on the legal aspect of 'cats' telempathy is interesting too-- I wonder what the precedents are for people claiming an enraged treecat drove them to violence on the 'cat's behalf, for example? And while the way Lionheart defended the Harringtons in Treecat Wars was clearly self-defense, I wonder what the legal precedents are there, too. More than once Elizabeth or Honor thinks that it's a bad idea to have their 'cat around for a particular discussion because of how the angry treecat might react. I doubt they go around fighting humans terribly often, but how does the legal system react when they do? What if they strike first?

As for physical accommodations, I can see a sort of treecat (and Medusan?) version of the ADA being adopted. Housing-wise, maybe a one-greenhouse-per-X,000 units sort of thing? One of the things that intrigues me also is the issue of transportation and communication-- now that the 'cats can sign, they can use email like everyone else to communicate with clans on other worlds; but how do they get the equipment? How do they pay for it and maintain it? And how do they visit each other? Will they have to be paying passengers, or will there be some sort of one-'cat-per-flight-rides-free arrangement?

On the eduction front, how do you keep a 'cat from cheating on a spelling test? :lol:


While cute, you are bringing TODAY'S issues into a conversation discussing things happening in 2000 years from now about a species that is totally different.

A few years ago I could communicate with my grown daughter living on the other side of the continent using either a phone or an email. Now we use Face Time a lot. The whole Internet is perhaps 30 years old. Chances are, there will be better ways given almost a hundred times that.

Cats will probably be able to sign over great distances using visuals.

Second, I doubt there will be much problem with spelling. Right now, our primitive (considering they will be looking back thousands of years) do a lot of auto changing our spelling. I would guess sometimes actually really soon there will be an AI behind it and our grand-children or great grand-children will not have to worry all that much about spelling and will rejoice!

The provisions for "handicapped" don't really quite fit for treecats. They are symbiotes. They need humans IF they live with us but they really don't have to. They can exist quite easily on Sphynx and probably some other planets on their own.

Notice that they are joining the fight against MAlign by helping guard the leaders. That does not mean they are fully joining human society.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:02 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
NortonIDaughter wrote:That's all brilliant-- I like the idea of clans as territorial units.

Your thoughts on the legal aspect of 'cats' telempathy is interesting too-- I wonder what the precedents are for people claiming an enraged treecat drove them to violence on the 'cat's behalf, for example? And while the way Lionheart defended the Harringtons in Treecat Wars was clearly self-defense, I wonder what the legal precedents are there, too. More than once Elizabeth or Honor thinks that it's a bad idea to have their 'cat around for a particular discussion because of how the angry treecat might react. I doubt they go around fighting humans terribly often, but how does the legal system react when they do? What if they strike first?

As for physical accommodations, I can see a sort of treecat (and Medusan?) version of the ADA being adopted. Housing-wise, maybe a one-greenhouse-per-X,000 units sort of thing? One of the things that intrigues me also is the issue of transportation and communication-- now that the 'cats can sign, they can use email like everyone else to communicate with clans on other worlds; but how do they get the equipment? How do they pay for it and maintain it? And how do they visit each other? Will they have to be paying passengers, or will there be some sort of one-'cat-per-flight-rides-free arrangement?

On the eduction front, how do you keep a 'cat from cheating on a spelling test? :lol:


While cute, you are bringing TODAY'S issues into a conversation discussing things happening in 2000 years from now about a species that is totally different.

A few years ago I could communicate with my grown daughter living on the other side of the continent using either a phone or an email. Now we use Face Time a lot. The whole Internet is perhaps 30 years old. Chances are, there will be better ways given almost a hundred times that.

Cats will probably be able to sign over great distances using visuals.

Second, I doubt there will be much problem with spelling. Right now, our primitive (considering they will be looking back thousands of years) do a lot of auto changing our spelling. I would guess sometimes actually really soon there will be an AI behind it and our grand-children or great grand-children will not have to worry all that much about spelling and will rejoice!

The provisions for "handicapped" don't really quite fit for treecats. They are symbiotes. They need humans IF they live with us but they really don't have to. They can exist quite easily on Sphynx and probably some other planets on their own.

Notice that they are joining the fight against MAlign by helping guard the leaders. That does not mean they are fully joining human society.

I think you're missing the gist of her point about spelling though. Cats have to take exams. It is simply too easy for Cats to cheat.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:29 am

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NortonIDaughter wrote:That's all brilliant-- I like the idea of clans as territorial units.

Your thoughts on the legal aspect of 'cats' telempathy is interesting too-- I wonder what the precedents are for people claiming an enraged treecat drove them to violence on the 'cat's behalf, for example? And while the way Lionheart defended the Harringtons in Treecat Wars was clearly self-defense, I wonder what the legal precedents are there, too. More than once Elizabeth or Honor thinks that it's a bad idea to have their 'cat around for a particular discussion because of how the angry treecat might react. I doubt they go around fighting humans terribly often, but how does the legal system react when they do? What if they strike first?

As for physical accommodations, I can see a sort of treecat (and Medusan?) version of the ADA being adopted. Housing-wise, maybe a one-greenhouse-per-X,000 units sort of thing? One of the things that intrigues me also is the issue of transportation and communication-- now that the 'cats can sign, they can use email like everyone else to communicate with clans on other worlds; but how do they get the equipment? How do they pay for it and maintain it? And how do they visit each other? Will they have to be paying passengers, or will there be some sort of one-'cat-per-flight-rides-free arrangement?

On the eduction front, how do you keep a 'cat from cheating on a spelling test? :lol:
Do pardon my bold.

Or vice versa.

Very good question. I too wonder about that and much much more.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:15 am

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Posts: 265
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ldwechsler wrote:
NortonIDaughter wrote:That's all brilliant-- I like the idea of clans as territorial units.

Your thoughts on the legal aspect of 'cats' telempathy is interesting too-- I wonder what the precedents are for people claiming an enraged treecat drove them to violence on the 'cat's behalf, for example? And while the way Lionheart defended the Harringtons in Treecat Wars was clearly self-defense, I wonder what the legal precedents are there, too. More than once Elizabeth or Honor thinks that it's a bad idea to have their 'cat around for a particular discussion because of how the angry treecat might react. I doubt they go around fighting humans terribly often, but how does the legal system react when they do? What if they strike first?

As for physical accommodations, I can see a sort of treecat (and Medusan?) version of the ADA being adopted. Housing-wise, maybe a one-greenhouse-per-X,000 units sort of thing? One of the things that intrigues me also is the issue of transportation and communication-- now that the 'cats can sign, they can use email like everyone else to communicate with clans on other worlds; but how do they get the equipment? How do they pay for it and maintain it? And how do they visit each other? Will they have to be paying passengers, or will there be some sort of one-'cat-per-flight-rides-free arrangement?

On the eduction front, how do you keep a 'cat from cheating on a spelling test? :lol:


While cute, you are bringing TODAY'S issues into a conversation discussing things happening in 2000 years from now about a species that is totally different.

A few years ago I could communicate with my grown daughter living on the other side of the continent using either a phone or an email. Now we use Face Time a lot. The whole Internet is perhaps 30 years old. Chances are, there will be better ways given almost a hundred times that.

Cats will probably be able to sign over great distances using visuals.

Second, I doubt there will be much problem with spelling. Right now, our primitive (considering they will be looking back thousands of years) do a lot of auto changing our spelling. I would guess sometimes actually really soon there will be an AI behind it and our grand-children or great grand-children will not have to worry all that much about spelling and will rejoice!

The provisions for "handicapped" don't really quite fit for treecats. They are symbiotes. They need humans IF they live with us but they really don't have to. They can exist quite easily on Sphynx and probably some other planets on their own.

Notice that they are joining the fight against MAlign by helping guard the leaders. That does not mean they are fully joining human society.


But I'm discussing the what-ifs of them dealing closer with human society. Honor mentions that they're going to revolutionize psychotherapy in the SKM, among other things, so they're clearly not just interested in guarding VIPs. And even without that, just moving to a different planetary environment as on Grayson radically changes the local treecat relationship with humans.

For example, food. Sphinx's native animals and plants are not enough to sustain a human indefinitely; Hell's were all but indigestible. Treecats already know that they require the compound found in purple thorn (and the Sphinxian cultiver of celery) to maintain their mindvoices. How do they obtain this food elsewhere?

We both agree that now that they can sign, they can send each other recorded messages-- a huge leap for the species as they have intentionally set out to become a multi-system species, since it's the first time they've ever had long-distance communication abilities. How do they get the equipment to do this? How do they travel between clans if some of those clans are on other planets?

So far we've mostly seen treecats through the lens of Honor's tremendous wealth and privilege. If Nimitz, Sam, or any of the White Haven or Grayson 'cats want to go somewhere, they ask and she provides. She chartered a flight to get the proto-clan to Grayson way back in IEH. What about 'cats who bonded with people who can't afford the fare? Or haven't bonded at all?

I think Elizabeth and Honor would both come down on the side of treecats being allowed to live where they choose, just like humans. But humans have to pay their way, and there are societal as well as legal rules on how we do that and what we are due in return. We have the right to "life" but not "food", for instance. In all the nations of the GA, there's the right to an education. How does a treecat, or a clan, get their needs met?

On Grayson, Harrington Steading is keeping those domes stocked with creatures the clan can eat. The Steading is importing celery. Is that going to be the model going forward? What about clans on Gryphon? Say the guard 'cats on Haven begin a true clan and their descendants have a territory in the forests there, on the same conditions what the Sphinx clans do. Sure, a few 'cats per generation might bond out, but what about the rest?

Do the clans enter into work agreements with local governments for what they need? Or do individual 'cats? Are there contracts? How do the 'cats negotiate when they can't do math? If a treecat goes to the spaceport for a ride to Sphinx, is the ship obligated to have the equivalent safety and emergency supplies for 'cats that they do for humans?

Treecats have been an incredible boon to the SKM. So of course if they can, other nations will want to invite them to establish colonies as well. But it's going to take some work to make the leap from the current situation-- where only the Grayson clan and the guard 'cats exist outside of traditional clan or bond-- to a future where true treecat clans exist elsewhere.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:23 am

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NortonIDaughter wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Analysis brilliant-- I like the idea of clans as territorial units.

Your thoughts on the legal aspect of 'cats' telempathy is interesting too-- I wonder what the precedents are for people claiming an enraged treecat drove them to violence on the 'cat's behalf, for example? And while the way Lionheart defended the Harringtons in Treecat Wars was clearly self-defense, I wonder what the legal precedents are there, too. More than once Elizabeth or Honor thinks that it's a bad idea to have their 'cat around for a particular discussion because of how the angry treecat might react. I doubt they go around fighting humans terribly often, but how does the legal system react when they do? What if they strike first?

As for physical accommodations, I can see a sort of treecat (and Medusan?) version of the ADA being adopted. Housing-wise, maybe a one-greenhouse-per-X,000 units sort of thing? One of the things that intrigues me also is the issue of transportation and communication-- now that the 'cats can sign, they can use email like everyone else to communicate with clans on other worlds; but how do they get the equipment? How do they pay for it and maintain it? And how do they visit each other? Will they have to be paying passengers, or will there be some sort of one-'cat-per-flight-rides-free arrangement?

On the eduction front, how do you keep a 'cat from cheating on a spelling test? :lol:


While cute, you are bringing TODAY'S issues into a conversation discussing things happening in 2000 years from now about a species that is totally different.

A few years ago I could communicate with my grown daughter living on the other side of the continent using either a phone or an email. Now we use Face Time a lot. The whole Internet is perhaps 30 years old. Chances are, there will be better ways given almost a hundred times that.

Cats will probably be able to sign over great distances using visuals.

Second, I doubt there will be much problem with spelling. Right now, our primitive (considering they will be looking back thousands of years) do a lot of auto changing our spelling. I would guess sometimes actually really soon there will be an AI behind it and our grand-children or great grand-children will not have to worry all that much about spelling and will rejoice!

The provisions for "handicapped" don't really quite fit for treecats. They are symbiotes. They need humans IF they live with us but they really don't have to. They can exist quite easily on Sphynx and probably some other planets on their own.

Notice that they are joining the fight against MAlign by helping guard the leaders. That does not mean they are fully joining human society.


But I'm discussing the what-ifs of them dealing closer with human society. Honor mentions that they're going to revolutionize psychotherapy in the SKM, among other things, so they're clearly not just interested in guarding VIPs. And even without that, just moving to a different planetary environment as on Grayson radically changes the local treecat relationship with humans.

For example, food. Sphinx's native animals and plants are not enough to sustain a human indefinitely; Hell's were all but indigestible. Treecats already know that they require the compound found in purple thorn (and the Sphinxian cultiver of celery) to maintain their mindvoices. How do they obtain this food elsewhere?

We both agree that now that they can sign, they can send each other recorded messages-- a huge leap for the species as they have intentionally set out to become a multi-system species, since it's the first time they've ever had long-distance communication abilities. How do they get the equipment to do this? How do they travel between clans if some of those clans are on other planets?

So far we've mostly seen treecats through the lens of Honor's tremendous wealth and privilege. If Nimitz, Sam, or any of the White Haven or Grayson 'cats want to go somewhere, they ask and she provides. She chartered a flight to get the proto-clan to Grayson way back in IEH. What about 'cats who bonded with people who can't afford the fare? Or haven't bonded at all?

I think Elizabeth and Honor would both come down on the side of treecats being allowed to live where they choose, just like humans. But humans have to pay their way, and there are societal as well as legal rules on how we do that and what we are due in return. We have the right to "life" but not "food", for instance. In all the nations of the GA, there's the right to an education. How does a treecat, or a clan, get their needs met?

On Grayson, Harrington Steading is keeping those domes stocked with creatures the clan can eat. The Steading is importing celery. Is that going to be the model going forward? What about clans on Gryphon? Say the guard 'cats on Haven begin a true clan and their descendants have a territory in the forests there, on the same conditions what the Sphinx clans do. Sure, a few 'cats per generation might bond out, but what about the rest?

Do the clans enter into work agreements with local governments for what they need? Or do individual 'cats? Are there contracts? How do the 'cats negotiate when they can't do math? If a treecat goes to the spaceport for a ride to Sphinx, is the ship obligated to have the equivalent safety and emergency supplies for 'cats that they do for humans?

Treecats have been an incredible boon to the SKM. So of course if they can, other nations will want to invite them to establish colonies as well. But it's going to take some work to make the leap from the current situation-- where only the Grayson clan and the guard 'cats exist outside of traditional clan or bond-- to a future where true treecat clans exist elsewhere.[/quote]

There are things needed in a treecat's diet. Celery is NOT one of them. The cats learned to love it. That's how Stephanie Harrington first got involved.

And geneticists should be able to find ways to grow it everywhere. I mean the genetic code for people has been broken down. How hard could it be for celery? Also, I don't recall anything about importing celery.

I think there will be a lot of interesting developments. Remember that cats often depend a lot on humans when in human society. And some of that will change.

But it will take time. And that time can be used to develop celery on a lot of planets. The kind that treecats like.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:04 am

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ldwechsler wrote:There are things needed in a treecat's diet. Celery is NOT one of them. The cats learned to love it. That's how Stephanie Harrington first got involved.

And geneticists should be able to find ways to grow it everywhere. I mean the genetic code for people has been broken down. How hard could it be for celery? Also, I don't recall anything about importing celery.

I think there will be a lot of interesting developments. Remember that cats often depend a lot on humans when in human society. And some of that will change.

But it will take time. And that time can be used to develop celery on a lot of planets. The kind that treecats like.


Celery itself isn't; the compound that Sphinxian celery shares with purple thorn is. 'Cats need one or the other (or one of the other modified fruits, like Marjorie Harrington's starfruit hybrid, that have it). Grayson must be importing and cultivating at least one of those things to sustain the local clan.

And who's paying these geneticists?
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:27 am

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What is the relative strength of the Medusans compared to, say, a San Martino. It appeared that a mass of charging Medusans were more than a formidable force against the Manties. If said mass was taught the skills and tactics of the Marines, they should become a very formidable ground assault troop, especially for the unwary enemy. Put them in battle armor and they should become even more dangerous. Also, battle armor made specifically for such a larger beast should be even more dangerous?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by stewart   » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:23 pm

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Just a couple of thoughts --

IIRC -- SKM (& SEM) hold the Baselisk SYSTEM but DO NOT own the territory on the Medusa planet surface -- Medusa is a Protectorate Status; that was the basis for the Havenite "trading" enclave and the plot reason for OBS;
SKM/SEM's primary territorial interest was the system and the Worm-hole Terminus.
As a result, the Medusans have tribal (local) self-governing. Perhaps a future anthology will hold a story of "expanded political interacting" by the Medusans. Thus far none seen.

The Treecats currently hold title to 1/3 of the surface area of Sphinx. IMHO a significantly larger portion of the surface land title should be "returned" to them as they have demonstrated through their interactions that they rate more than "minor child" equivalency status.
Perhaps as Tanner's Port and Yawetta Crossing are rebuilt, the Title to those lands are conferred to the 'Cats in-whole, with Two-legs residing by permission (and paying rent/lease)

Again -- Just a few thoughts
-- Stewart
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by drothgery   » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:59 pm

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stewart wrote:Just a couple of thoughts --

IIRC -- SKM (& SEM) hold the Baselisk SYSTEM but DO NOT own the territory on the Medusa planet surface -- Medusa is a Protectorate Status; that was the basis for the Havenite "trading" enclave and the plot reason for OBS;
SKM/SEM's primary territorial interest was the system and the Worm-hole Terminus.
As a result, the Medusans have tribal (local) self-governing. Perhaps a future anthology will hold a story of "expanded political interacting" by the Medusans. Thus far none seen.

That was the case in On Basilisk Station. However, the status of Basilisk was substantially revised in the aftermath of the events of that book. What was never put in any future book was how things ended up, IIRC.
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