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Manticore's new citizens

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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by Daryl   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:35 am

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The best human societies are founded on egalitarianism, with equality of opportunity and no discrimination.
That may not be optimal with a society made up of very different species with very different abilities and outlooks. There may well have to be safeguards to protect all sentient citizens, just as we now have laws to protect the slower witted from con merchants.
As an example, code duello where the challenged gets to choose the weapons would have to be different.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:54 am

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cthia wrote:Some things that came up in a discussion amongst my friends quite some time ago is the treecat rights leading to a seat in the Lords. LOL

Would a human be able to marry a treecat? It isn't inconceivable that a bonded pair would opt to get married for legal reasons. Married people can buy assets without jumping through a lot of the legal hoops presented to singles. Not to mention all of the tax breaks.



Now your getting preverted.

Then again, Nimitz likes to sleep on Honor's chest with his head resting beteeen her breasts. Queen Elibeth's treecat Ariel risks suffocation.

On a serious note, I suspect that some new type of legal institution similar to marriage will evolve so that treecats can own property in common with their humans.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:59 am

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NortonIDaughter wrote:So Manticore needs a new constitution, or at least a heck of a set of amendments. Forget the Talbott cluster; the newest citizens to need some new rights expressly codified are the treecats and their people. (And one other group I'll get to.)

Right now the 'cats have one extra-MBS colony, on Grayson. It's likely they'll want to establish others, and it's certain that the higher ups on Haven, Beowulf, etc will want to extend that invitation-- the 'cats are too great an advantage to the humans they choose to partner with. But as we've seen in Treecat Wars, even 'cats have conflicts between them. How does Manticore deal with the fact that there will eventually come a time, if only in the distant future, when war will cut some 'cat clans off from the homeworld-- or worse, pit treecats against Manticore itself? They need a "right of return" for treecats and their adoptees. Automatic dual citizenship or only just the offer, permanently extended.

So far, treecats have been lucky in their allies, and cunning in their successful takeover of the monarchy. :lol: But now that they're out of the closet, they need the right to an education, and to send representatives to Parliament if they so choose. Most 'cats may always want to live as they have, but now that they're starting to integrate more closely into human society, they need to be able to access the information they need, and to argue their case as necessary. (How would treecats vote on going to war, for example? Not to mention, what one constitutional amendment can do, another can undo...)

And while the SEM's in the process of adjusting to the fact that they have a whole sentient species demanding a new role in their society, perhaps they ought to extend the same opportunities to the OTHER sentient species they've colonized.

Medusans. All we really see of them is in OBS, where they're described as having all the hallmarks of any civilization, including governments, laws, and trade. Where Manticore could have argued that, without a common language, the "perpetual child" thing was the best they could do for treecats, Medusans *have* language and have had the ability to communicate with humans for decades.

Where is their representation in Parliament? How do they contest Manticore's decisions about their planet, which has already been involved in Manticore's wars at least twice? We know Manticore limits their access to technology regardless of their wishes (using the rather spurious argument that they don't want to contaminate the culture-- if all you wanted was the wormhole, why did you land at all? Just build the forts, call the planet a preserve and don't let anyone land!).

Do they have the right to go off-world? Do they have the right to books, histories, galactic news? I would assume not, if Manticore is trying to keep them from acquiring tech (and educational materials would lead to exactly that). Which is ridiculous. At this point, Medusans know the galaxy is out there. It's time to give it to them.


I absolute agree about the takeover of the monarchy. King Roger and his daughter Elizebeth,the as well as Honor Harrington respond to threats in the same manner as Treecat clans respond to Hexapumas that invade their range. They kill it.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by Theemile   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:21 am

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
cthia wrote:Some things that came up in a discussion amongst my friends quite some time ago is the treecat rights leading to a seat in the Lords. LOL

Would a human be able to marry a treecat? It isn't inconceivable that a bonded pair would opt to get married for legal reasons. Married people can buy assets without jumping through a lot of the legal hoops presented to singles. Not to mention all of the tax breaks.



Now your getting preverted.

Then again, Nimitz likes to sleep on Honor's chest with his head resting beteeen her breasts. Queen Elibeth's treecat Ariel risks suffocation.

On a serious note, I suspect that some new type of legal institution similar to marriage will evolve so that treecats can own property in common with their humans.


Manticorian Law already allows for "non-traditional" contract marriages of any shape, size, and duration. I don't see Treecat bonding laws being a big stretch from those that exist - the "hardest" part is establishing that Treecats themselves have individual ownership rights.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:36 pm

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Theemile wrote:Manticorian Law already allows for "non-traditional" contract marriages of any shape, size, and duration. I don't see Treecat bonding laws being a big stretch from those that exist - the "hardest" part is establishing that Treecats themselves have individual ownership rights.

There would have to be at least one change, since treecats currently have "minor child" status.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by saber964   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:14 pm

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A Kings Bench decision in 1685 PD forever banned all legal challenges to Treecat sentience and status as citizens. Also a Treecat adoption carries the same legal status as a marriage.

Based on the treecat stated population, treecats would have 3 or 4 members of parliament and probably the same number in the house of lords. Based on the exploits of several treecats and assumed positions.

Lady Samantha Countess of Sun Leaf
Lord Nimitz Duke of Bright Water
Lady Sorrow Singer Grand Duchess of Black Rock, Singer of the Clans.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:39 pm

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NortonIDaughter wrote:So Manticore needs a new constitution, or at least a heck of a set of amendments. Forget the Talbott cluster; the newest citizens to need some new rights expressly codified are the treecats and their people. (And one other group I'll get to.)

Right now the 'cats have one extra-MBS colony, on Grayson. It's likely they'll want to establish others, and it's certain that the higher ups on Haven, Beowulf, etc will want to extend that invitation-- the 'cats are too great an advantage to the humans they choose to partner with. But as we've seen in Treecat Wars, even 'cats have conflicts between them. How does Manticore deal with the fact that there will eventually come a time, if only in the distant future, when war will cut some 'cat clans off from the homeworld-- or worse, pit treecats against Manticore itself? They need a "right of return" for treecats and their adoptees. Automatic dual citizenship or only just the offer, permanently extended.

So far, treecats have been lucky in their allies, and cunning in their successful takeover of the monarchy. :lol: But now that they're out of the closet, they need the right to an education, and to send representatives to Parliament if they so choose. Most 'cats may always want to live as they have, but now that they're starting to integrate more closely into human society, they need to be able to access the information they need, and to argue their case as necessary. (How would treecats vote on going to war, for example? Not to mention, what one constitutional amendment can do, another can undo...)

And while the SEM's in the process of adjusting to the fact that they have a whole sentient species demanding a new role in their society, perhaps they ought to extend the same opportunities to the OTHER sentient species they've colonized.

Medusans. All we really see of them is in OBS, where they're described as having all the hallmarks of any civilization, including governments, laws, and trade. Where Manticore could have argued that, without a common language, the "perpetual child" thing was the best they could do for treecats, Medusans *have* language and have had the ability to communicate with humans for decades.

Where is their representation in Parliament? How do they contest Manticore's decisions about their planet, which has already been involved in Manticore's wars at least twice? We know Manticore limits their access to technology regardless of their wishes (using the rather spurious argument that they don't want to contaminate the culture-- if all you wanted was the wormhole, why did you land at all? Just build the forts, call the planet a preserve and don't let anyone land!).

Do they have the right to go off-world? Do they have the right to books, histories, galactic news? I would assume not, if Manticore is trying to keep them from acquiring tech (and educational materials would lead to exactly that). Which is ridiculous. At this point, Medusans know the galaxy is out there. It's time to give it to them.



Treecats have legal right s because they are cute and cuddly.
Medusans have no rights because not only are they shit ugly, they eat their own shit. No one wants to associate with them. Hell, just nuke em from orbit.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by Fox2!   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:49 pm

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saber964 wrote:
Based on the treecat stated population, treecats would have 3 or 4 members of parliament and probably the same number in the house of lords. Based on the exploits of several treecats and assumed positions.

Lady Samantha Countess of Sun Leaf
Lord Nimitz Duke of Bright Water
Lady Sorrow Singer Grand Duchess of Black Rock, Singer of the Clans.


Wouldn't they take their seats under their tree cat names, rather than their two-leg one?
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:06 am

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Well, regarding the code duello, no truly egalitarian society has one at all, since it's essentially "might makes right" on a personal scale. Denver Summervale may have been paid for most of his kills, but any a**hole with good aim could wreck as much devastation as he did with no legal repercussions.

But I definitely see where, say, having Medusans ask to join the RMN would cause all sorts of headaches. Do you really want to have to redesign all your ships to accommodate their physique when only a handful are joining up at first? (Picture them as Marines or in the Army though. Now *that's* something the rest of the galaxy should fear.) On the flip side, RFC has made a point of mentioning how beneficial alternative viewpoints can be over and over in the series-- Hemphill & White Haven, Grayson & Manticore-- and he's especially played it up with the treecats. I see no reason why Medusans wouldn't be just as valuable in broadening the SEM's horizons.

While the treecats' status as sentients can't be argued, the amount of land on Sphinx they hold could well be, especially in the farther future when they're more firmly integrated into human society-- after all, part of the reason they hold so much of it is that they *weren't* integrating, and needed at least that much land to maintain their population and way of life. Especially if, say, young scouts and other select treecats began to claim the right to an education as citizens (to better understand human society and tech, etc), I can see some greedy people arguing that they are being treated with excessive favor by being able to claim both human and treecat benefits.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:02 am

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NortonIDaughter wrote:Well, regarding the code duello, no truly egalitarian society has one at all, since it's essentially "might makes right" on a personal scale. Denver Summervale may have been paid for most of his kills, but any a**hole with good aim could wreck as much devastation as he did with no legal repercussions.

But I definitely see where, say, having Medusans ask to join the RMN would cause all sorts of headaches. Do you really want to have to redesign all your ships to accommodate their physique when only a handful are joining up at first? (Picture them as Marines or in the Army though. Now *that's* something the rest of the galaxy should fear.) On the flip side, RFC has made a point of mentioning how beneficial alternative viewpoints can be over and over in the series-- Hemphill & White Haven, Grayson & Manticore-- and he's especially played it up with the treecats. I see no reason why Medusans wouldn't be just as valuable in broadening the SEM's horizons.

While the treecats' status as sentients can't be argued, the amount of land on Sphinx they hold could well be, especially in the farther future when they're more firmly integrated into human society-- after all, part of the reason they hold so much of it is that they *weren't* integrating, and needed at least that much land to maintain their population and way of life. Especially if, say, young scouts and other select treecats began to claim the right to an education as citizens (to better understand human society and tech, etc), I can see some greedy people arguing that they are being treated with excessive favor by being able to claim both human and treecat benefits.

Medusans simply won't be suited for naval service. Lots of people aren't suited for naval service now. They call them Marines. LOL

Good point. But then it could be defended in favor of progress. Instead of dual citizenship, a sort of dual species-ship. The problems of dual citizenship still aren't completely ironed out. Certainly for Americans who eventually end up forgoing dual citizenship in some cases because it is less legally constraining - hence more profitable. Oh the IRS horror stories of owning businesses in two countries where you are a legal citizen. Will the Cats be up against the same rollercoaster ride?

In a sense, legal precedence has already been established.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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