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How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?

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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:42 am

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Jonathan_S wrote: And for most of that time Manticore would also have been picking up a small increase in trading because the Trevor's Star terminus should be reopened to non-military traffic and the hundreds of worlds of the (restored) People's Republic of Haven would be newly opened to external trade.

kzt wrote:No, Per David the terminus was always open for traffic other then during active military operations in the vicinity of the terminus.

"…However, there seem to be some additional misconceptions floating around. Specifically, discussion as to whether or not the Trevor's Star terminus of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction was used during the period when Trevor's Star was held by the People's Republic. The answer is that, yes, it was."
...
" So here's what happened, people. After open hostilities began, additional restrictions were placed on all passage through the Trevor's Star terminus of the Junction. Light warships were placed within energy range of the emergence point, and it was made clear to everyone involved that any ship coming through which did not immediately follow the procedures on which they had been thoroughly briefed before being allowed transit or failed to conform with any additional orders from traffic control after making transit, would be fired upon and destroyed."


http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/280/0

Good to know, but Jonathan'S point about the Trevor's Star terminus being opened to trade with the restored Republic of Haven is also correct. There may have been some civilian traffic during wartime, but that should increase greatly with the new alliance.
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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by kzt   » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:54 am

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:
Good to know, but Jonathan'S point about the Trevor's Star terminus being opened to trade with the restored Republic of Haven is also correct. There may have been some civilian traffic during wartime, but that should increase greatly with the new alliance.

Trading to where? And with what? They are mostly famous for producing large quantities of weapons cleverly built using technology far inferior to the SL or the SEM. And mass executions.

When has anyone told you “I want a Russia laptop?” Or said “Those German and Japanese machine tools don’t hold a candle next to Russian 5 axis tools.” I’ll guess never.
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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:09 am

tlb
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tlb wrote:Good to know, but Jonathan'S point about the Trevor's Star terminus being opened to trade with the restored Republic of Haven is also correct. There may have been some civilian traffic during wartime, but that should increase greatly with the new alliance.

kzt wrote:Trading to where? And with what? They are mostly famous for producing large quantities of weapons cleverly built using technology far inferior to the SL or the SEM. And mass executions.

When has anyone told you “I want a Russia laptop?” Or said “Those German and Japanese machine tools don’t hold a candle next to Russian 5 axis tools.” I’ll guess never.

Is the correct trade comparison to Russia or to China? Also the comment about "mass executions" could equally be about Russia or China; but is unfair to the new government of Haven.

But if you prefer I will change the wording of the offending sentence to the "point about the Trevor's Star terminus being opened to civilian traffic with the restored Republic of Haven is also correct".
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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:21 am

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote: And for most of that time Manticore would also have been picking up a small increase in trading because the Trevor's Star terminus should be reopened to non-military traffic and the hundreds of worlds of the (restored) People's Republic of Haven would be newly opened to external trade.

No, Per David the terminus was always open for traffic other then during active military operations in the vicinity of the terminus.

"…However, there seem to be some additional misconceptions floating around. Specifically, discussion as to whether or not the Trevor's Star terminus of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction was used during the period when Trevor's Star was held by the People's Republic. The answer is that, yes, it was."
...
" So here's what happened, people. After open hostilities began, additional restrictions were placed on all passage through the Trevor's Star terminus of the Junction. Light warships were placed within energy range of the emergence point, and it was made clear to everyone involved that any ship coming through which did not immediately follow the procedures on which they had been thoroughly briefed before being allowed transit or failed to conform with any additional orders from traffic control after making transit, would be fired upon and destroyed."


http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/280/0

I believe Manticore kept Trevor's Star as a military closed system during the ceasefire; wouldn't that preclude civilian use of that terminus? And it would have been shut down during the majority of the first war.

So while it was open from the fall of Trevor's Star until the start of the war[1], 17 years or so, it would have been closed to all traffic from 1905 until Manticore took the system (1911-ish?) and then I believe closed to all but military traffic until 1922 when the peace treaty ends the renewed war. So I think it's been closed to shipping for around 17 years.

[1] I'd misremembered and thought they'd closed that route after the Peep's attempt to seize Basilisk; but I was wrong Manticore only forbade Haven's naval ships any use of the Junction and insisted on full inspection of all other Haven flagged ships using the junction; regardless of diplomatic status
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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by kzt   » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:32 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I believe Manticore kept Trevor's Star as a military closed system during the ceasefire; wouldn't that preclude civilian use of that terminus? And it would have been shut down during the majority of the first war.

So while it was open from the fall of Trevor's Star until the start of the war[1], 17 years or so, it would have been closed to all traffic from 1905 until Manticore took the system (1911-ish?) and then I believe closed to all but military traffic until 1922 when the peace treaty ends the renewed war. So I think it's been closed to shipping for around 17 years.

[1] I'd misremembered and thought they'd closed that route after the Peep's attempt to seize Basilisk; but I was wrong Manticore only forbade Haven's naval ships any use of the Junction and insisted on full inspection of all other Haven flagged ships using the junction; regardless of diplomatic status


You may believe that. But since I quoted David Webber saying that is in fact not true I have no idea why you believe that you understand the details of the PRH-SKM war better that David Weber does. Can you elaborate on what your source of information is?
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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:10 pm

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I believe Manticore kept Trevor's Star as a military closed system during the ceasefire; wouldn't that preclude civilian use of that terminus? And it would have been shut down during the majority of the first war.

So while it was open from the fall of Trevor's Star until the start of the war[1], 17 years or so, it would have been closed to all traffic from 1905 until Manticore took the system (1911-ish?) and then I believe closed to all but military traffic until 1922 when the peace treaty ends the renewed war. So I think it's been closed to shipping for around 17 years.

[1] I'd misremembered and thought they'd closed that route after the Peep's attempt to seize Basilisk; but I was wrong Manticore only forbade Haven's naval ships any use of the Junction and insisted on full inspection of all other Haven flagged ships using the junction; regardless of diplomatic status


You may believe that. But since I quoted David Webber saying that is in fact not true I have no idea why you believe that you understand the details of the PRH-SKM war better that David Weber does. Can you elaborate on what your source of information is?

Gah, total reading comprehension fail on my part. I somehow missed the context of that entire 2nd paragraph - so obviously they were allowing (presumably neutral party) traffic through during the first 6 or so years of the war. Oops - sorry about that.
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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:30 pm

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Between the first and second Havenite wars, civilian traffic could have been permitted through the Junction with the Trevor's Star terminus. I would suspect that some level of customs inspection against all sorts of things would have been in effect, and spelled out, even to the point of negotiations with Haven about stuff -like weapons etc.
Remember that the termini are outside the normal system limits...way out. So civilian shipping not being allowed into the military reservation that was the recovered Trevor's Star would be easy to enforce. There are going to be a buttload of RMN warships around the terminus in any case and anybody going through from the Junction end would have already been notified of the restrictions and Have Had To Acknowledge Receipt of the Regulations and that they were going to comply.

Any civilian (Haven or otherwise) dropping back into normal space heading for the system rather then the terminus would have had to contend with the rather substantial RMN picket. Want to forfit you multi-million ton freighter and cargo plus get a long stay in a RMN prison facility for you and your crew and passengers......not high on most captains lists of things to do... particulary since the whole "use of lethal force" thing would come into play about the time you got the the limit and then your and your crew wouldn't be around to think about anything anymore.
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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:46 pm

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China has become what is arguably​ the world's largest economy but aggressively exporting craploads of crap.
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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:19 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:China has become what is arguably​ the world's largest economy but aggressively exporting craploads of crap.


If they make a lot of money and support the industries it wants, they don't care if what we buy is all that crap.
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Re: How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?
Post by phillies   » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:45 am

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:
Good to know, but Jonathan'S point about the Trevor's Star terminus being opened to trade with the restored Republic of Haven is also correct. There may have been some civilian traffic during wartime, but that should increase greatly with the new alliance.

Trading to where? And with what? They are mostly famous for producing large quantities of weapons cleverly built using technology far inferior to the SL or the SEM. And mass executions.

When has anyone told you “I want a Russia laptop?” Or said “Those German and Japanese machine tools don’t hold a candle next to Russian 5 axis tools.” I’ll guess never.


This planet was founded by Frenchmen. It produces large amounts of first rate and different cheeses and wines, all sorts of intellectual properties, etc.
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