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"Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?

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Re: "Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:45 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:The RMN's Nike Class at 2.5 Mtons have 50 missile tubes, 64 CM tubes, and 60 PDLCs. Triumphant class Battleships have 76 missile tubes, 44 CM tubes, and 52 PDLCs, all on a hull that's only 50% larger than the Nikes at 4.5 Mtons. If you rearmed the old Triumphants with RMN style off-bore Mk16 missiles, compensators & Beta squared nodes, and RMN/GSN automation (since they're more efficient than the later Republican automation) a Triumphant becomes one hell of a rear-security ship. With similar compensators to the Nike's, I think a Triumphant-II could hit a military max of 625 gravs to the 2.5 MTon Nike's 675.
If they had the same generation compensator that gave the Nike 675 gees a 4.4 mton ship like the Triumphant should, I think, actually have 645 gees. The new compensators appear based on very limited data to be a straight percentage improvement over the old ones. Nike's 1920 PD compensator let her pull 144% the accel of an old-style one. 144% of a Triumphant's 445.1 gees is 645.1.

It'd be a hell of a mean ship, but I don't know that the costs (probably 75+% of a full up SD(P), especially if you fit Keyhole II onto it is worth it. It's not 75% of the combat power and survivability of the full up waller. So it'd be in the same category as the old BBs relative to contemporary designs. It could crush any BC (including Nike) that it could catch but couldn't stand up to full wallers - making it too expensive for it's capabilities).

The only reason Haven used BBs is that they were mostly a sunk cost. They'd built a bunch back when they were primary waller combatants and, like the Royal Navy used it's pre-dreadnaughts in WWI, they were still used once obsolete because they were around and paid for. But it wouldn't make any sense to build new ships of that size and capability for those roles. So I don't see anybody building new BBs.
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Re: "Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:16 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:With Haven and Manticore now being allied, sharing technologies, and no longer at each others throats, think there's any chance at a return of the Battleship?


Not a chance -- at least not as you propose.

The one difference between a BC(L) and a pre-war Battleship you're missing is Automation.

With Automation, a BC(L), BB(new), and SD(P) are all going to cost about the same to operate. (assuming new BBs actually get built.) You're not going to get the reduction in crew size that would make up the bulk of your savings based on non-automated designs, so there's not enough saved over building new BC(L)s or SD(P)s to make building a third ship type viable.

Another point to consider: The System Defense paradigm has changed; LACs and Apollo SD Missiles with Mycroft (or Moriarty) control is far cheaper than any ship type.
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Re: "Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:00 pm

TFLYTSNBN

They already have a new technology "battleship." It is called a NIKE.
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Re: "Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?
Post by Annachie   » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:00 pm

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What would a modern era battleship be for?

Maybe the marine corp would use a ship of that size, and call it a battleship, but then it wouldn't be a modern era battleship.
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Re: "Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?
Post by drothgery   » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:48 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:With Haven and Manticore now being allied, sharing technologies, and no longer at each others throats, think there's any chance at a return of the Battleship?

Probably not. The only remotely viable BB concept I can think of would be 'a stretched Nike' with all-up MDMs and Keyhole II... and I just don't think that would be all that much cheaper to build or operate than an SD(P), or have much better acceleration, and would be way worse defensively.
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Re: "Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?
Post by kzt   » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:49 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:Another point to consider: The System Defense paradigm has changed; LACs and Apollo SD Missiles with Mycroft (or Moriarty) control is far cheaper than any ship type.

All of these are kind of vulnerable to stealth strikes.
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Re:
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:53 pm

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Annachie wrote:What would a modern era battleship be for?

Maybe the marine corp would use a ship of that size, and call it a battleship, but then it wouldn't be a modern era battleship.


The RMMC has the Kammerling "System Control Cruiser" for that aspect of a "Battleship Mission." eg police action/dissent suppression.
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Re: "Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:54 pm

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kzt wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Another point to consider: The System Defense paradigm has changed; LACs and Apollo SD Missiles with Mycroft (or Moriarty) control is far cheaper than any ship type.

All of these are kind of vulnerable to stealth strikes.


And BBs or "System Control Cruisers" wouldn't be?
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Re: "Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?
Post by kzt   » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:39 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
kzt wrote:All of these are kind of vulnerable to stealth strikes.


And BBs or "System Control Cruisers" wouldn't be?

Things that move are harder to localize and destroy than things that don’t. Warships are better able to stop attacks than are boxes of electronics in close formation.
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Re: "Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:32 am

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kzt wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:All of these are kind of vulnerable to stealth strikes.


And BBs or "System Control Cruisers" wouldn't be?

Things that move are harder to localize and destroy than things that don’t. Warships are better able to stop attacks than are boxes of electronics in close formation.[/quote]

Creating a whole new class of ships is expensive. Since the Nike's are pretty close to the size of the BB's what is the point?

It is likely that a lot of the smaller ships will get bigger as Apollo, etc. winds up able to function in smaller packages. Unless there is a specific reason to create the battleships, why bother doing it?
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