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(Spoilers) UH questions and discussion

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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:18 pm

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tlb wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:Assuming all the Meyerdahl immigrants to Sphinx had the locked Meyerdhal mods, how many generations would it take to spread the those mods throughout the general population of Sphinx?

Galactic Sapper wrote:IIRC they're pretty well spread on Sphinx. Something like a third to half the population has one of the Meyerdahl mods. It appeared in one of the early books but I don't have machine readable copies.

ldwechsler wrote:And that was just in a few hundred years. Note also that people with the mod almost certainly married those from outside Sphinx. There were undoubtedly a real lot of people on Manticore and Gryphon who had the mod. If it is actually locked in, there would be a lot of genies. Since there aren't, it is likely that it is not.

I have included the quote from chapter 3 of In Enemy Hands. The quote makes it clear that the Meyerdahl mods are dominant, but not locked.
"Don't worry, My Lord. Mike Henke teases me about it all the time, and the explanation's simple enough. I'm a genie."
The earl blinked briefly, his expression totally blank, then nodded in sudden understanding. It was considered extremely impolite to use the term "genie" to describe someone, but given Harrington's neurosurgeon father and—especially—geneticist mother, she was probably more comfortable with the label than many. For that matter, the prejudice against genetically engineered humans was slowly dying out as the last memories of Old Earth's Final War faded from the racial forebrain. But there had been no such prejudice in the early days of the Diaspora, and quite a few colonies had been established by genies specifically designed for their new environments.
"I wasn't aware of that, Milady," he said after a moment.
"We don't talk about it much, but I'd guess the majority of Sphinxians are genies by now," she replied. He raised a polite eyebrow, and she shrugged. "Think about it," she suggested. "Heavy-grav planets are one of the most common 'hostile' environments. You know that even today most heavy-worlders have shorter than average life expectancies?" She looked at White Haven again, and he nodded. "That's because even with modern medicine you can't put a body designed for a single gravity onto a one-point-three or one-point-five-gravity planet and expect it to function properly. I, on the other hand—"
She made a graceful gesture with one hand, and he nodded slowly. "I knew about the modifications for Quelhollow, but those are much more readily apparent than what you seem to be talking about," he observed.
"Well, Quelhollow had some other environmental concerns, whereas my ancestors were more of a . . . generic design, I suppose. Basically, my muscle tissue is about twenty-five percent more efficient than a 'pure human's,' and there are a few changes to my respiratory and circulatory systems, plus some skeletal reinforcement. The idea was to fit us for heavy-grav planets generally, not one in particular, and the geneticists made the changes dominant, so that every parent would pass them on to every child."
...
"That's only an estimate, and it's not one modification. The Harringtons are descended from the Meyerdahl First Wave, which was one of the first—in fact, I think it was the first—heavy-grav modification, and folks like us probably make up about twenty or twenty-five percent of the population. But there are several variations on the same theme, and worlds tend to attract colonists who can live there comfortably. When you add the free passages the government offered to recruit fresh colonists after the Plague of Twenty-Two AL, Sphinx wound up attracting an even bigger chunk of us than most, including a lot from the core worlds who wouldn't even have considered emigration otherwise. In many respects, the Meyerdahl genies are the most successful, in my modest opinion, though. Our musculature enhancement is certainly the most efficient, at any rate. But we do have one problem most of the others don't."
"Which is?"
"Most of us don't regenerate," she told him, touching the left side of her face. "Over eighty percent of us have a built-in genetic conflict with the regen therapies, and not even Beowulf has been able to figure out how to get around it yet. I'm pretty sure they will eventually, but for now—"


Sigh. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

To use the high school textbook example, let's say you've got a single gene that has a dominant and recessive version. Let's call it A, with the dominant version being a capital A and the recessive version being a small letter a.

Now, assume that one parent has the recessive version, meaning aa, and the other has a dominant-recessive pair, meaning Aa.

The children are going to be half Aa and half aa.

This is bog-standard Mendelian inheritance, which has been well understood since Mendel's work was rediscovered in the early 20th century.

The fact that a variation is dominant does not mean that it will be inherited. Dominance does NOT mean "it will be inherited."

If a parent is guaranteed to pass it to ALL of cis children, then it's locked. That's one of the two things that locked means.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:08 pm

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One wonders if the genetic modifications disseminated prior to the final war are full documented. How many of those mods are locked? How many have been adjusted time and again after the final war as knowledge about genetics improved?

The more I think about it, the more it seems that there is no baseline genetics for the Honorverse. There almost has to be significant number of gene sequences with a wide variety of existing combinations.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by Theemile   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:32 pm

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PeterZ wrote:One wonders if the genetic modifications disseminated prior to the final war are full documented. How many of those mods are locked? How many have been adjusted time and again after the final war as knowledge about genetics improved?

The more I think about it, the more it seems that there is no baseline genetics for the Honorverse. There almost has to be significant number of gene sequences with a wide variety of existing combinations.


In 1000 PD, before the Beowulf code, there were 500-1000 planets, each with the technology to muck with the human genome, and someone had been doing it for almost 1200 years. Across them, there were probably thousands of "standard" mods, millions of little "non-standard" mods and who knows how many underground, illegal, "if you have enough money no one's gonna say no" mods. Even if a database exists, how many underground modders were paid not to include said mods in the database (Like the Winton mods)?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:41 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Any GE mods to enable colonization of a marginal planet would be designed to be dominant and all colonists would be getting two copies of the dominant mod to ensure that their descents will survive the adverse conditions. Barring further immigration, only random mutation would result in people having any other gene. If someone gets a double copies of the mutated gene, they will be maladapted and likely short lived.

Honorverse genetic engineering should be far more advanced than we can imagine. They might have techniques such as viruses and prions included in the physiology that rewrite any mutations or hybridized alternatives to the critical genes.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:26 pm

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tlb wrote:I have included the quote from chapter 3 of In Enemy Hands. The quote makes it clear that the Meyerdahl mods are dominant, but not locked.
The idea was to fit us for heavy-grav planets generally, not one in particular, and the geneticists made the changes dominant, so that every parent would pass them on to every child."

JohnRoth wrote:Sigh. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

To use the high school textbook example, let's say you've got a single gene that has a dominant and recessive version. Let's call it A, with the dominant version being a capital A and the recessive version being a small letter a.

Now, assume that one parent has the recessive version, meaning aa, and the other has a dominant-recessive pair, meaning Aa.

The children are going to be half Aa and half aa.

This is bog-standard Mendelian inheritance, which has been well understood since Mendel's work was rediscovered in the early 20th century.

The fact that a variation is dominant does not mean that it will be inherited. Dominance does NOT mean "it will be inherited."

If a parent is guaranteed to pass it to ALL of cis children, then it's locked. That's one of the two things that locked means.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Any GE mods to enable colonization of a marginal planet would be designed to be dominant and all colonists would be getting two copies of the dominant mod to ensure that their descents will survive the adverse conditions. Barring further immigration, only random mutation would result in people having any other gene. If someone gets a double copies of the mutated gene, they will be maladapted and likely short lived.

Honorverse genetic engineering should be far more advanced than we can imagine. They might have techniques such as viruses and prions included in the physiology that rewrite any mutations or hybridized alternatives to the critical genes.

There is imprecision in the highlighted quote. If either parent is "AA" then all the children will express the Meyerdahl modification. If both parents are "Aa", then three out of four children will express that modification. If one parent is "Aa" and the other parent is "aa", then only two out of four will express that modification.
The question is what happens to the "aa" child in a heavy gravity environment? If the environment is extreme, then they would be disadvantaged socially and maritally.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:01 pm

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Niether Honor or, earlier Alfred, had anything in their genetic makeup to flag them as a potential problem (medical) by the Manticorian military.

There are a lot of people who have been adopted by Treecats over the years. I would suspect that the Crown (at least) would have been interested in possible DNA links to adoption. Doing something about that wondering is another question but it would have been very very quiet.

At this point in the story we don't actualy know if anybody in the GA has hold of samples of dan from an Alignment Alpha Line member. I would suspect that none of the Alpha through Gama lines who had been on Mesa were ever using non-Alignment medical services and so the likelyhood of any samples of Alpha through Game members in Mesan databases is remote.

Actually, I don't recall any discussion at all within the GA (or Maya) about "Alpha Lines" etc. The only time the Star Lines come up is in the discussion/descripton of goings on withing the Alignment or the meeting Albrect went to for the RF, the thoughts of a couple of people in the Mannheim SDF who were Alignment and the Financial Reporter/columnest thinking about Hanrahann. If you are fairly well into the Alignment you know about Star Lines but nobody elce seems to.
That doesn't mean that there is not feeling the the GA doesn't think that Alignment leadership and certainly a number of it's agents don't have enhancements, but that doesn't mean there are Alignment genes that can be tracked. Among other things, there are apparently a lot of lost lines- including the Harrington one- which MAY show some connection to an Alignment Alpha if an adequate sample (a whole lot of people) were tested and run through comparisons. I doubt anybody is looking for a Superman gene, it's not that simple and most things in genetics need a confluence a lot of pieces in sequence just to work.
The other obvious thing is that, because of the lost lines, there would be a fair number of people flagging if you find a number of oddly modified genes that you presume indicate an Alpha. There is also the challange that just having a version of what makes a current Alpha an Alpha doesn't mean that the person either knows anything about the Alignment (the line could have been lost hundreds of years ago) nor does it mean that if they find out that they have something similar that they would become or even want to think about joining the Alignment only because they share some genetics (a very small part).

All this is complicated by the various legal (at differnt times and places) genetic modification plus the vast number of genetic slaves (and variations in them) produced for sale (or just experimentation that survived and were not terminated) by Mesa and anybody elce raising modified humans. Remember that Mesa (being manipulated and used for cover by the Alignment) had been a testing lab for all the modification now included in the present Star Lines.
Complications :)
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:24 am

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tlb wrote:There is imprecision in the highlighted quote. If either parent is "AA" then all the children will express the Meyerdahl modification. If both parents are "Aa", then three out of four children will express that modification. If one parent is "Aa" and the other parent is "aa", then only two out of four will express that modification.
The question is what happens to the "aa" child in a heavy gravity environment? If the environment is extreme, then they would be disadvantaged socially and maritally.


When we talk about a "locked mod," we're talking about two different although related things. The first is where a mod that involves multiple genes on multiple chromosomes gets inherited in an all-or-nothing fashion. The second says that the modification is passed to all of a person's children, regardless of what's in the other parent's genome. The second necessarily includes the first, but the reverse is not true.

Dominant applies to single genes. It does not imply that a complex trait that's encoded in multiple genes on multiple chromosomes gets inherited in an all or nothing fashion.

As to the comment Honor made: "dominant" rather than "locked" contradicts the second clause, which says that the mod gets passed to each and every one of the person's offspring. Not some of them. All of them.

Now, since those two statements contradict each other, which is more likely to be correct: the statement about how it's inherited, or the statement that it's "dominant" rather than "locked." Remember that Honor's expertise is in making superdreadnaughts blow up rather than in genetics.

The Meyerdhal mods are locked. Period.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:34 am

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Traits are also said to dominant, just as individual genes are dominant. Traits carried on a sequence of genes may be dominant just as the genes associated with those traits are locked. I read Honor's comments as speaking about the various traits in the heavy grav gene mods. The traits the Heyerdahl mods generate.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:54 am

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PeterZ wrote:One wonders if the genetic modifications disseminated prior to the final war are full documented. How many of those mods are locked? How many have been adjusted time and again after the final war as knowledge about genetics improved?

The more I think about it, the more it seems that there is no baseline genetics for the Honorverse. There almost has to be significant number of gene sequences with a wide variety of existing combinations.


The situation is not that bad. It can't be. If it was, the species would have split in innumerable species that couldn't interbreed, because the offspring wouldn't be viable.

Something I mentioned a while back, and I'll mention again. I did a design for a system where multiple modifications could be inherited in an all-or-nothing fashion. I was working with someone who was writing [redacted] fetish stories involving a society where genetic modifications were common, and wanted to know how it would work so he could avoid too much genetic fantasy.

While doing that, I convinced myself of one thing: it's not possible to do locked mods without redesigning the genome in some very significant ways. That has an implication: it's going to be blatantly obvious when a genome has what I call the "Genetic modifications platform" installed. Major modifications are then simply "plugins" to that platform, and can be read out with the proper procedures.

Why the complexity? There's a very simple reason: for any modification that involves multiple genes on multiple chromosomes, it is simply impossible to inherit it in an all or nothing fashion. The way chromosomes are split and reassembled during the reproductive process practically guarantees that only part of the modification will be inherited.
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Re: (Spoilers) UH questions and discussion
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:22 am

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I wonder if that sort to redesigning the human genome wasn't done after the Final War? Something drastic had to have been done to save humanity from the bio weapons. I would like to think that sort of change happened prior to the Star Lines. If that sort of plug and play redesign was a Star Line feature, finding them with a gene sniffer is easy-peasy.
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