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Retirement Age in the Honorverse

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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by kzt   » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:15 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I imagine that most prolong recipients in the Honorverse have multiple careers in various professions punctuated by taking time off for continuing education or having children. Maternity/Paternity leave is probably messured in years unless you are the Admiral of 8th Fleet who foolishly forgot to check her contraceptive implant.

It's easy to say that, but companies can't have their CFO take off for 5 years. If you can, then why do you even pay someone to do that job?

The other psychological/financial issue is that at 30 years in a career you are typically at the high point. You are an executive, a senior nurse, a foreman, a respected physician, a senior engineer. Are you really going to throw that away and say "I'm going to go learn to drive trucks, for one-quarter or one-tenth of my salary and become an interchangeable clog in their machine for years."
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:20 pm

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kzt wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:I imagine that most prolong recipients in the Honorverse have multiple careers in various professions punctuated by taking time off for continuing education or having children. Maternity/Paternity leave is probably messured in years unless you are the Admiral of 8th Fleet who foolishly forgot to check her contraceptive implant.

It's easy to say that, but companies can't have their CFO take off for 5 years. If you can, then why do you even pay someone to do that job?

The other psychological/financial issue is that at 30 years in a career you are typically at the high point. You are an executive, a senior nurse, a foreman, a respected physician, a senior engineer. Are you really going to throw that away and say "I'm going to go learn to drive trucks, for one-quarter or one-tenth of my salary and become an interchangeable clog in their machine for years."


This is one case where I have to agree with Nameless. All you have to do to see the issue is to look across the pond at Queen Elizabeth II. She has two, count them, two, generations following her, and probably a third on the way. In the bad old days, this is the kind of situation that has lead to rebellions, assassinations, death, doom, disaster, devastation and a lot of other unpleasantness beginning with the letter d. If you only spend 30 years reaching the top of your profession, and then spend the next 100 years acting like a dog in the manger and not letting anyone else have the top spot, the results are going to be very unfunny.
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:53 pm

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kzt wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:I imagine that most prolong recipients in the Honorverse have multiple careers in various professions punctuated by taking time off for continuing education or having children. Maternity/Paternity leave is probably messured in years unless you are the Admiral of 8th Fleet who foolishly forgot to check her contraceptive implant.

It's easy to say that, but companies can't have their CFO take off for 5 years. If you can, then why do you even pay someone to do that job?

The other psychological/financial issue is that at 30 years in a career you are typically at the high point. You are an executive, a senior nurse, a foreman, a respected physician, a senior engineer. Are you really going to throw that away and say "I'm going to go learn to drive trucks, for one-quarter or one-tenth of my salary and become an interchangeable clog in their machine for years."


This is one case where I have to agree with Nameless. All you have to do to see the issue is to look across the pond at Queen Elizabeth II. She has two, count them, two, generations following her, and probably a third on the way. In the bad old days, this is the kind of situation that has lead to rebellions, assassinations, death, doom, disaster, devastation and a lot of other unpleasantness beginning with the letter d. If you only spend 30 years reaching the top of your profession, and then spend the next 100 years acting like a dog in the manger and not letting anyone else have the top spot, the results are going to be very unfunny.[/quote]


We are doing a real lot of guessing now because we generally don't have anything like those long lives. Elizabeth is a great exception to the rule but keep in mind she doesn't do very much. But you can see the damage done to her son...Crazy Prince Charlie. The Brits in general don't want him. He's into retirement age without having every done much.

The same goes for most jobs. When we had that early crackpot idea of 140 years in the Manticore Navy, it had to be crazy. Henke was told she was in the back half of her class in terms of getting a Rear Admiral spot and that was after 30 years in. So your admirals will be out soon and the rankers will be there forever.

Note that Aubrey Wanderman after around 20 years in is at the top of the heap on a ship. Will he be doing it for another century? Dubious.

I think people will generally switch jobs unless they are very happy in what they are doing. Who wants to be a tech doing the same thing for a century? It is likely a lot of jobs will be changing as well especially through the growth of AI, etc.
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:09 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
kzt wrote:


It's easy to say that, but companies can't have their CFO take off for 5 years. If you can, then why do you even pay someone to do that job?

The other psychological/financial issue is that at 30 years in a career you are typically at the high point. You are an executive, a senior nurse, a foreman, a respected physician, a senior engineer. Are you really going to throw that away and say "I'm going to go learn to drive trucks, for one-quarter or one-tenth of my salary and become an interchangeable clog in their machine for years."


This is one case where I have to agree with Nameless. All you have to do to see the issue is to look across the pond at Queen Elizabeth II. She has two, count them, two, generations following her, and probably a third on the way. In the bad old days, this is the kind of situation that has lead to rebellions, assassinations, death, doom, disaster, devastation and a lot of other unpleasantness beginning with the letter d. If you only spend 30 years reaching the top of your profession, and then spend the next 100 years acting like a dog in the manger and not letting anyone else have the top spot, the results are going to be very unfunny.



We are doing a real lot of guessing now because we generally don't have anything like those long lives. Elizabeth is a great exception to the rule but keep in mind she doesn't do very much. But you can see the damage done to her son...Crazy Prince Charlie. The Brits in general don't want him. He's into retirement age without having every done much.

The same goes for most jobs. When we had that early crackpot idea of 140 years in the Manticore Navy, it had to be crazy. Henke was told she was in the back half of her class in terms of getting a Rear Admiral spot and that was after 30 years in. So your admirals will be out soon and the rankers will be there forever.

Note that Aubrey Wanderman after around 20 years in is at the top of the heap on a ship. Will he be doing it for another century? Dubious.

I think people will generally switch jobs unless they are very happy in what they are doing. Who wants to be a tech doing the same thing for a century? It is likely a lot of jobs will be changing as well especially through the growth of AI, etc.[/quote]

You mean that the stuffy Windsor clan might start assasinating each other?
Please pass the popcorn.

Of course I find the theory that British Intelligence assasinated Princess Diana to ensure that the royal heirs were not raised by a muslim patriarch increasingly credible.

Now Prince William and Prince Harry need to assasinate Prince Charles for killing their mother and to keep hissorry butt off the throne.
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by pappilon   » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:47 pm

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kzt wrote:


It's easy to say that, but companies can't have their CFO take off for 5 years. If you can, then why do you even pay someone to do that job?

The other psychological/financial issue is that at 30 years in a career you are typically at the high point. You are an executive, a senior nurse, a foreman, a respected physician, a senior engineer. Are you really going to throw that away and say "I'm going to go learn to drive trucks, for one-quarter or one-tenth of my salary and become an interchangeable clog in their machine for years."


ldwechsler wrote:This is one case where I have to agree with Nameless. All you have to do to see the issue is to look across the pond at Queen Elizabeth II. She has two, count them, two, generations following her, and probably a third on the way. In the bad old days, this is the kind of situation that has lead to rebellions, assassinations, death, doom, disaster, devastation and a lot of other unpleasantness beginning with the letter d. If you only spend 30 years reaching the top of your profession, and then spend the next 100 years acting like a dog in the manger and not letting anyone else have the top spot, the results are going to be very unfunny.



TFLYTSNBN wrote:We are doing a real lot of guessing now because we generally don't have anything like those long lives. Elizabeth is a great exception to the rule but keep in mind she doesn't do very much. But you can see the damage done to her son...Crazy Prince Charlie. The Brits in general don't want him. He's into retirement age without having every done much.

The same goes for most jobs. When we had that early crackpot idea of 140 years in the Manticore Navy, it had to be crazy. Henke was told she was in the back half of her class in terms of getting a Rear Admiral spot and that was after 30 years in. So your admirals will be out soon and the rankers will be there forever.

Note that Aubrey Wanderman after around 20 years in is at the top of the heap on a ship. Will he be doing it for another century? Dubious.

I think people will generally switch jobs unless they are very happy in what they are doing. Who wants to be a tech doing the same thing for a century? It is likely a lot of jobs will be changing as well especially through the growth of AI, etc.


You mean that the stuffy Windsor clan might start assasinating each other?
Please pass the popcorn.

Of course I find the theory that British Intelligence assasinated Princess Diana to ensure that the royal heirs were not raised by a muslim patriarch increasingly credible.

Now Prince William and Prince Harry need to assasinate Prince Charles for killing their mother and to keep hissorry butt off the throne.[/quote]


I think even the Honorverse is working through it. SLN Fleet Admiral was one of the first recipients of First Gen Prolong, Honor was Third Gen. With the war over, we'll see he same thing happen to the GA navies as the SLN The ship bridges will be filled with admirals and first commands will be relegateted to captains of the list.

There is textev that Havenites are delaying marriage and child bearing. There is lots of social and political implication to Prolong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by Fireflair   » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:58 pm

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I can't recall where it was discussed previously but it has been discussed before. Prolong does stretch out careers and prior to the Havenite wars, people would sit in grade for long periods of time. Only the explosive expansion of the RMN was allowing officers and enlisted to move up the ranks so quickly.

I feel, though I can't recall exactly, that the same blurb about advancement also talked about people in the civilian community. I know it has been mentioned that people would often have multiple careers.

I understand the comment about making it to the top of the pile in a field and not giving it up to take some entry level position elsewhere. However I think we can be smarter than that. Honor's father, for instance, is still in medicine after many many years of practice. As is her mother. I suspect the practical effect of prolong is that people will move around within a job field more as they progress in their career. And that it will take significantly longer to move up as the expectation will be that you have a much broader base of knowledge and experience before taking on more responsibilities within a company.

I also recall that there was some discussion about Queen Elizabeth and the royal family seeking to avoid just what was mentioned up post. They understand the inherent dangers in a ruling monarch that lives 250+ years. Yes, it gives you a constant steady hand to guide the ship and keep petty politics from derailing long range plans but it also provides a lot of opportunity for the rest of the family to get into trouble and be under utilized. That is why the family doesn't allow the kids to laze about. They're in the Navy, Foreign Service Office, etc.
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:07 pm

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Let's not discount a lateral movement within the Navy. Honor could teach for a very conceivable 70+ yrs. It's been done here on Earth.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:40 pm

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cthia wrote:What is the retirement age in the Honorverse?
Military and Private sector?



Naval Retirement:

They now allow you for enlisted to stay in 40 years doing this you will get 100% of your base pay. The max cut off used to be 29 and the min still is 20. The did this since recruiting is low. You can cross over into different branches. If you start out in the Marines first you won't have to attend any other branch of service's boot camp. Now if you go reserve during your time and then go active duty then your time of service is counted differently. If you have a total time of service of 20 years and out of the 20 years 2 of it was reserve time then you wouldn't be able to retire just yet. Hope this was what you were looking for.


Current life expectancy: in US is 79.8 yrs. So essentially half a lifetime.

Life expectancy in the Honorverse: is 300 yrs? So naval retirement after 150 yrs of service?

150 years is a long time to duck ordnance. It's a wonder statistics don't catch up with you long before retirement in this neck-o-the-woods.

Private Sector Retirement: 62 yrs-old. 75 % of Life expectancy.

Which would equate to 225 yrs in Honorverse before retirement.

W :o E!

Grayson would have to be graded on a curve, until their retirement ages began to stretch out being affected by prolong.

It seems the GSN can afford for its officers to retire far less than the RMN.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:33 am

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cthia wrote:What is the retirement age in the Honorverse?
Military and Private sector?



Naval Retirement:

They now allow you for enlisted to stay in 40 years doing this you will get 100% of your base pay. The max cut off used to be 29 and the min still is 20. The did this since recruiting is low. You can cross over into different branches. If you start out in the Marines first you won't have to attend any other branch of service's boot camp. Now if you go reserve during your time and then go active duty then your time of service is counted differently. If you have a total time of service of 20 years and out of the 20 years 2 of it was reserve time then you wouldn't be able to retire just yet. Hope this was what you were looking for.


Current life expectancy: in US is 79.8 yrs. So essentially half a lifetime.

Life expectancy in the Honorverse: is 300 yrs? So naval retirement after 150 yrs of service?

150 years is a long time to duck ordnance. It's a wonder statistics don't catch up with you long before retirement in this neck-o-the-woods.

Private Sector Retirement: 62 yrs-old. 75 % of Life expectancy.

Which would equate to 225 yrs in Honorverse before retirement.

W :o E!

Grayson would have to be graded on a curve, until their retirement ages began to stretch out being affected by prolong.

It seems the GSN can afford for its officers to retire far less than the RMN.[/quote]


You cannot simply compare ages for today and then bring it up to a prolong era.

Example: Many teachers burn out after a quarter of a century (and some burn out a lot earlier) but they stay on so they can receive a healthy retirement check. At 20 years in New York City where I worked, at 20 years you got 49% of your last year's salary (that was years ago, a lot of things got modified since). Then you would receive 1.2% for the next ten years. So at 30 years in you would have 62%. After that, it was 1.7% per year. I retired at 46 years with about 82% of my last year's salary. Since a lot of deductions were no longer in place (no social security payments, no state taxes in New York State), I actually took in more money.

A lot of teachers held on desperately. Once you got past a certain number of years service you had the "pewter handcuffs," a chance for a possible decent life after teaching. And a real lot of teachers retired on the job.

If there was, let's say, a 50 year requirement, a lot of those teachers would have retired. While it might have improved education, schools would have been horribly short-handed.

The same goes for a real lot of jobs. Comparing a top neurosurgeon with, let's say a technician, really doesn't mesh. And Harrington did shift jobs for a long time. Remember he really came back to Bassingford mainly to help Honor when she was hurt.

Most of the jobs in the navy are pretty boring. People will not enlist GENERALLY for a century's worth of service. Also, financially it will not work. If you had very long service, real danger, and low pay/pensions, who would give up a life of centuries for almost nothing in return?
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by Fireflair   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:32 pm

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I'm not sure that anyone would want to do something for 70 plus years. Doldrums and such.

A reason that the RMN cycles senior officers from place to place after a few years, even teaching, is so that they don't get stale and they maintain an appreciation of operational realities. That's very important.

I don't think we want to end up with a bunch of arm chair intellectuals who are coasting on past glories when the modern world of the military is vastly different from what they experienced. Honor enjoys teaching a great deal and some things might be able to be taught the same but in order to remain a valid teacher I think she'd have to stay on active duty, moving in and out of active commands deployed around the empire.
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