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Retirement Age in the Honorverse

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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by Daryl   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:04 am

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Young senior refused treatment for his mortal obesity which eventually killed him, so I'd imagine that you can refuse prolong. Why not a form of prolong for treecats anyway? Might include withholding celery?


NortonIDaughter wrote:It'd be interesting to see what happens when a treecat wants to retire-- or doesn't want to retire-- from a line of work when their person does. I suspect they'd work it out between themselves like any other close relationship.

Age-wise, I wonder what we'll be seeing a hundred fifty or so years down the road, when the treecats start dying before their people for the first time. Honor wonders in "Best Laid Plans" if the 'cats are aware of prolong yet, but we haven't seen any follow-up on that point, and Honor actively shies away from thinking about it from her end whenever it gets brought up after her own adoption. Previously, most treecats suicided after the deaths of their humans. We don't have a hint how humans react, except for Fritz Montoya's fibs to Ransom. Even though he was lying to save Honor, I doubt he was exaggerating that wildly-- dying relatively soon after a beloved spouse passes away is not uncommon IRL, let alone after the loss of someone who's as much a part of you as your 'cat. I could see that shortening the lives, or working lives, of adoptees in the future.

Which brings me to another question-- do you have the legal right to refuse prolong? What are the laws on suicide, assisted or otherwise? Is right-to-die a thing?
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:26 am

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Interesting questions raised!

Is Kevorkianism embraced in the Honorverse? Interesting.

I would guess refusing prolong may hint at your mental state too much to allow one who refuses it to enter into the Service of the Queen. I would seriously bet on prolong being a military requirement. No prolong, may equate to a disability in the minds of some. Same in the civilian sector. Who would want to hire someone who is impaired as such? It is hard to enforce prejudiced hiring practices against people with certain disabilities, but for one who chooses said disability?

Developing prolong for Cats would suggest immense breakthroughs in understanding Cat physiology that may also suggest Alfred's ability to repair Nimitz.

What we haven't been told yet by storyline, iinm, is how emotionally dependent a Cat/person becomes with bonding. Are they akin to Siamese twins who can't be away from each other? :oops:

Cats who have bonded with each other have endured extended long distance separation, like Nimitz and Samantha. Is it as easy for Cat/person? I don't remember an example of storyline separating a Cat and his person. I've been in love so deeply that separation felt like a slow death.

Even if a human does not follow a Cat into death, their personality may die. Honor could become a real Ransom.

Withholding celery from a Cat could cause a [C c]onstitutional crisis. Free access to celery should be written into a Cat's rights. Seriously, denying Cats celery could have made the relationship between Cats-n-twolegs go quite differently.

Getting back to kevorkianism in the Honorverse, it may not be needed. A pulser may be the new kevorkian.


Daryl wrote:Young senior refused treatment for his mortal obesity which eventually killed him, so I'd imagine that you can refuse prolong. Why not a form of prolong for treecats anyway? Might include withholding celery?

NortonIDaughter wrote:It'd be interesting to see what happens when a treecat wants to retire-- or doesn't want to retire-- from a line of work when their person does. I suspect they'd work it out between themselves like any other close relationship.

Age-wise, I wonder what we'll be seeing a hundred fifty or so years down the road, when the treecats start dying before their people for the first time. Honor wonders in "Best Laid Plans" if the 'cats are aware of prolong yet, but we haven't seen any follow-up on that point, and Honor actively shies away from thinking about it from her end whenever it gets brought up after her own adoption. Previously, most treecats suicided after the deaths of their humans. We don't have a hint how humans react, except for Fritz Montoya's fibs to Ransom. Even though he was lying to save Honor, I doubt he was exaggerating that wildly-- dying relatively soon after a beloved spouse passes away is not uncommon IRL, let alone after the loss of someone who's as much a part of you as your 'cat. I could see that shortening the lives, or working lives, of adoptees in the future.

Which brings me to another question-- do you have the legal right to refuse prolong? What are the laws on suicide, assisted or otherwise? Is right-to-die a thing?
Last edited by cthia on Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:31 am

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Daryl wrote:Young senior refused treatment for his mortal obesity which eventually killed him, so I'd imagine that you can refuse prolong. Why not a form of prolong for treecats anyway? Might include withholding celery?


NortonIDaughter wrote:It'd be interesting to see what happens when a treecat wants to retire-- or doesn't want to retire-- from a line of work when their person does. I suspect they'd work it out between themselves like any other close relationship.

Age-wise, I wonder what we'll be seeing a hundred fifty or so years down the road, when the treecats start dying before their people for the first time. Honor wonders in "Best Laid Plans" if the 'cats are aware of prolong yet, but we haven't seen any follow-up on that point, and Honor actively shies away from thinking about it from her end whenever it gets brought up after her own adoption. Previously, most treecats suicided after the deaths of their humans. We don't have a hint how humans react, except for Fritz Montoya's fibs to Ransom. Even though he was lying to save Honor, I doubt he was exaggerating that wildly-- dying relatively soon after a beloved spouse passes away is not uncommon IRL, let alone after the loss of someone who's as much a part of you as your 'cat. I could see that shortening the lives, or working lives, of adoptees in the future.

Which brings me to another question-- do you have the legal right to refuse prolong? What are the laws on suicide, assisted or otherwise? Is right-to-die a thing?


There seems to be a legal right to refuse although doing so is in some ways an act of suicide. But a rather long one. Remember we have more than a few folks here in the US who will not vaccinate their kids. Some of those kids may die from it.

And we have religious reasons. Remember that Young's father was, of course, of an earlier generation. He might have had some sort of reason we just don't know about. Especially if prolong could actually help his obesity.

There's a famous (probably fake news) story about a pill developed to darken people's skin color so they look suntanned without having to go in the sun where they might develop skin cancer. But it got cancelled because of side effects: people who took it kept losing weight and it worked like viagra for both sexes.

But as someone with at least some weight problems I would love to be able to simply take a safe pill and lose weight.
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:52 am

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Daryl wrote:Young senior refused treatment for his mortal obesity which eventually killed him, so I'd imagine that you can refuse prolong. Why not a form of prolong for treecats anyway? Might include withholding celery?


NortonIDaughter wrote:It'd be interesting to see what happens when a treecat wants to retire-- or doesn't want to retire-- from a line of work when their person does. I suspect they'd work it out between themselves like any other close relationship.

Age-wise, I wonder what we'll be seeing a hundred fifty or so years down the road, when the treecats start dying before their people for the first time. Honor wonders in "Best Laid Plans" if the 'cats are aware of prolong yet, but we haven't seen any follow-up on that point, and Honor actively shies away from thinking about it from her end whenever it gets brought up after her own adoption. Previously, most treecats suicided after the deaths of their humans. We don't have a hint how humans react, except for Fritz Montoya's fibs to Ransom. Even though he was lying to save Honor, I doubt he was exaggerating that wildly-- dying relatively soon after a beloved spouse passes away is not uncommon IRL, let alone after the loss of someone who's as much a part of you as your 'cat. I could see that shortening the lives, or working lives, of adoptees in the future.

Which brings me to another question-- do you have the legal right to refuse prolong? What are the laws on suicide, assisted or otherwise? Is right-to-die a thing?


ldwechsler wrote:There seems to be a legal right to refuse although doing so is in some ways an act of suicide. But a rather long one. Remember we have more than a few folks here in the US who will not vaccinate their kids. Some of those kids may die from it.

And we have religious reasons. Remember that Young's father was, of course, of an earlier generation. He might have had some sort of reason we just don't know about. Especially if prolong could actually help his obesity.

There's a famous (probably fake news) story about a pill developed to darken people's skin color so they look suntanned without having to go in the sun where they might develop skin cancer. But it got cancelled because of side effects: people who took it kept losing weight and it worked like viagra for both sexes.

But as someone with at least some weight problems I would love to be able to simply take a safe pill and lose weight.

Glad you brought that up. I was thinking about America currently being at loggerheads with parents refusing inoculation, when I made that post upstream. Which eventually comes down to denying kids basic rights. It came up in one of the last three episodes of The Good Doctor.

It's quickly becoming a bigger can-o-worms than that opened in the Rambling's thread.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:18 pm

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NortonIDaughter wrote:Which brings me to another question-- do you have the legal right to refuse prolong? What are the laws on suicide, assisted or otherwise? Is right-to-die a thing?

That probably gets into some messy ground about parental rights since almost everybody now gets prolong as a teenager - and in fact delaying until you've become an adult prevents you from taking the newest and best prolong therapies. :eek:

(It would be even messier if there wasn't any prolong that could work after you'd turned 18 - then your parents would deciding for you whether or not you can get a couple extra centuries of healthy adult life!!)


The child presumably wouldn't be able to make informed consent about refusing prolong if the parents wanted them to have it - but would various governments allow parents to opt their children out of receiving prolong? (I'd guess probably because there are still versions that the kid can accept after they become a legal adult - but that's a guess)
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:10 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
NortonIDaughter wrote:Which brings me to another question-- do you have the legal right to refuse prolong? What are the laws on suicide, assisted or otherwise? Is right-to-die a thing?

That probably gets into some messy ground about parental rights since almost everybody now gets prolong as a teenager - and in fact delaying until you've become an adult prevents you from taking the newest and best prolong therapies. :eek:

(It would be even messier if there wasn't any prolong that could work after you'd turned 18 - then your parents would deciding for you whether or not you can get a couple extra centuries of healthy adult life!!)

Too many questions we have no answers to. What will age of consent be? Will there be opposition on a religious basis to prolong? There doesn't seem to be one even on Grayson.

Keep in mind that what we see as rights today might not be the seen the same way in a couple of thousand years. Note the power of the Lords on Manticore. They got knocked down a bit but it took what was essentially treason by the Lords to get there.

And they still will have enormous influence.



The child presumably wouldn't be able to make informed consent about refusing prolong if the parents wanted them to have it - but would various governments allow parents to opt their children out of receiving prolong? (I'd guess probably because there are still versions that the kid can accept after they become a legal adult - but that's a guess)
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:15 pm

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If the parents have prolong and refuse the kids prolong suggests they may want their kids to die before them. Or die before their grandparents which is such a creepy mentality. What kind of parents would want to outlive their kids?

I can't imagine a parent who doesn't have it themselves, then is hit with the reality that they'll have a short life in the face of their friends looking so young and healthy with centuries ahead of them, then wanting that same fate for their kids. I hear mid-life crisis can be a bitch for many people.

Seriously, anyone who doesn't want to cheat death out of several centuries need a full mental evaluation, pronto.

What possible reason would there be to refuse it? There are no serious medical concerns being faced like present day parents who refuse inoculation on the grounds that it could induce other medical issues. So, a parent who refuses it has to be at least suspected as being mentally or emotionally unstable. And extremely selfish.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by Daryl   » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:37 pm

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There is an extra dimension to this. If prolong adds an other 200 years what may be developed during that time? Quite possibly it could just keep rolling.
Some gerentologists have speculated that female children born in low pollution areas of a developed country now could potentially be immortal.
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:01 am

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Daryl wrote:There is an extra dimension to this. If prolong adds an other 200 years what may be developed during that time? Quite possibly it could just keep rolling.
Some gerentologists have speculated that female children born in low pollution areas of a developed country now could potentially be immortal.

Just want to make sure I completely understand your post. Do you perceive that immortality, or even several more centuries of life, is a reason that parents may want to draw the line?

If the Bible is true, man lived for ~ 1000 years. Methuselah died at 969-yrs-old. Perhaps prolong is replacing the longevity that man lost.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Retirement Age in the Honorverse
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:13 am

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cthia wrote:
Daryl wrote:There is an extra dimension to this. If prolong adds an other 200 years what may be developed during that time? Quite possibly it could just keep rolling.
Some gerentologists have speculated that female children born in low pollution areas of a developed country now could potentially be immortal.

Just want to make sure I completely understand your post. Do you perceive that immortality, or even several more centuries of life, is a reason that parents may want to draw the line?

If the Bible is true, man lived for ~ 1000 years. Methuselah died at 969-yrs-old. Perhaps prolong is replacing the longevity that man lost.


Immortality is still speculative. Those who make the claims do so based on what they expect from scientific research.

As for religion, that tends not to be based as much on rational thought (save for Pascal's gamble) as emotion.
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