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And on the third... Spoilers

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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by phillies   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:42 pm

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tlb wrote:
phillies wrote:The Baruch Plan was that Germany should be totally deindustrialized after the war, so that it could never again cause a world war. It would be permitted limited light industry for clothing, but would elsewise be limited to agricultural activities. No metal working. No machine tools. The plan was not adopted.

ldwechsler wrote:It was the Morgenthau Plan, named for the US Secretary of the Treasury and it was not adopted. Main reason was fear of rise of Nazis in fury at first but Russian interference and theft of just about all the tools, etc., in their area led the US, UK and France to build up West Germany.

Charybdis wrote:We, the post-WW2 generations, tend to forget why such plans (Baruch & Morgenthau) made sense at the time they were proposed. Prussia/Germany, during and after its 19th century 'consolidation' following the Napoleonic Era, was a flat-out aggressive country. In 1795, Prussia joined with Russia and Hapsburg Austria to wipe Poland off of the map in a total partition of the country.

In 1864 there was the Schleswig Wars where land was annexed from Denmark under joint Prussian & Austrian forces. This was quickly followed in 1866 with the Austro-Prussian War where Prussia further consolidated the borders of what would become Imperial Germany by taking formerly independent polities (duchies, counties, principalities) that had been affiliated with Austria.

In 1870, Napoleon III foolishly attacked Prussia over a dispute concerning the Spanish Monarchy succession. The war ended in 6 months with Napoleon III captured and portions of French provinces Alsace & Lorraine being added to Prussia. While this war was going on and the Prussians were besieging Paris, the German Empire was proclaimed at the French Palace of Versailles (1871).

Add the WW1 and WW2 aggressions and you can see where our predecessors got the viewpoint of a totally demilitarized and forced agrarian-only Germany. The active aggression of Stalin & the Soviet Union from the 1920s on made these plans untenable and thus we have BMWs to drive. :lol:

Fixed the attribution that had me saying something that came from Phillies.
Some of what you list as German aggression could be included in the consolidation of the German state out of the patchwork of duchies, principalities and so on. It seems more aggressive to us because it was more recent; the similar activities that united Britain or France were ancient history by then. The unification of Italy was less prominent.
Certainly Poland's partition was aggressive, but Alsace & Lorraine have a more contentious history over whether they are French or German.

PS. The Baruch Plan had to do with international control of atomic energy and not Germany according to Wikipedia.


Thank you for the correction that I was remembering Morgenthau, not Baruch.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:26 pm

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The basic reasoning behind the plan was that Germans was a real danger to all its neighbors. Several nations, including Czechoslovakia, Poland, and France, tossed out all the ethnic Germans they could find, even those who had lived there for generations. They remembered how Hitler had used them to expand.

The Germans did not win friends through their aggression. All of their neighbors hated and feared them, although a couple of the countries that worked with them claimed they had been forced into it. There are still major resentments today over German actions during that war.

Add to that the fact Moregenthau, a Jew, was fully aware of the Holocaust despite the best efforts of some media groups to block news of that during the war, and he was really out to make certain that the Germans would never again rise.

He failed.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:42 am

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ldwechsler wrote:Even before the suicides, it was clear that the police forces knew something was wrong. They could have gotten the information from assorted nasty means and learned what was happening. This just made it simple. Actually, another benefit was that it ensured that those who survived were on the right side. Talk about a double edged sword. The bad guys die, the good guys get verified as good.
I'm not sure I'd go that far. If they'd picked up an Onion member who wasn't part of that cell then the questions likely wouldn't have triggered their self-destruct. They might still know the people they were questioned about but wouldn't know they were also in the Onion.

The winnowing by questioning is certainly better than nothing, but what will be better is when the good guys can come up with a quick reliable field test for the MAlign nanos. Then you know whether the person is associated with the inner Onion even if you don't know what their self-destruct triggers are (or their suicide attack triggers if they're just a patsy)

And best will be when they figure out how to neutralize the nanos without killing the prisoner. Then you can stun or knock out the suspect, check for the presence of MAlign nanotech, disable that tech and have a live prisoner to question. :D
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by Montrose Toast   » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:59 pm

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Who says all of the MAligh operatives have the same triggers?

Some of the "good guys" might be a different [a follow up] layer of the onion...
"Who Dares Wins"
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:01 pm

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Montrose Toast wrote:Who says all of the MAligh operatives have the same triggers?

Some of the "good guys" might be a different [a follow up] layer of the onion...


If the nanotech virus wasn't so specialized to each individual's DNA, a tactic would be infecting large numbers of the navy with a program to do something akin to sending a warning email to a address if a certain trigger happened - like if you hear about Y email Z while you are sleeping.

Essentially, you would turn the whole navy into your early warning system.

Either that or have anyone who hears about X just grab a pulser and off themselves. That way no one can do research about you.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by stewart   » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:22 pm

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Montrose Toast wrote:Who says all of the MAligh operatives have the same triggers?

Some of the "good guys" might be a different [a follow up] layer of the onion...


--------------------

The triggers (and fatal seizures) seem more to (1) prevent an interrogation and (2) limit any access to the back-trail up the counter-intel path.

The SLN KNOWS they were penetrated; without Treecats, the SLN Intel are more limited in methods of identification and isolation.

-- Stewart
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:50 pm

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Montrose Toast wrote:Who says all of the MAligh operatives have the same triggers?

Some of the "good guys" might be a different [a follow up] layer of the onion...

stewart wrote:The triggers (and fatal seizures) seem more to (1) prevent an interrogation and (2) limit any access to the back-trail up the counter-intel path.

The SLN KNOWS they were penetrated; without Treecats, the SLN Intel are more limited in methods of identification and isolation.

Even with tree cats, things are very limited since they only sense when the nanotech overrides the subject's volition.
The Solarian team does know who the controlling agent was for some of the agents. Assuming she is now dead, they still might be able to discover how she was receiving her instructions.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:05 pm

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Montrose Toast wrote:Who says all of the MAligh operatives have the same triggers?

Some of the "good guys" might be a different [a follow up] layer of the onion...

stewart wrote:The triggers (and fatal seizures) seem more to (1) prevent an interrogation and (2) limit any access to the back-trail up the counter-intel path.

The SLN KNOWS they were penetrated; without Treecats, the SLN Intel are more limited in methods of identification and isolation.


tlb wrote:Even with tree cats, things are very limited since they only sense when the nanotech overrides the subject's volition.
The Solarian team does know who the controlling agent was for some of the agents. Assuming she is now dead, they still might be able to discover how she was receiving her instructions.


I don't think that is true: Manticore, Haven and Beowulf are rolling up the MAlign's intelligence network using treecats, and they aren't trying to trigger them first. The first instance on Torch, the cat detected something off, but didn't know what it was.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 pm

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Montrose Toast wrote:Who says all of the MAligh operatives have the same triggers?

Some of the "good guys" might be a different [a follow up] layer of the onion...

stewart wrote:The triggers (and fatal seizures) seem more to (1) prevent an interrogation and (2) limit any access to the back-trail up the counter-intel path.

The SLN KNOWS they were penetrated; without Treecats, the SLN Intel are more limited in methods of identification and isolation.

tlb wrote:Even with tree cats, things are very limited since they only sense when the nanotech overrides the subject's volition.
The Solarian team does know who the controlling agent was for some of the agents. Assuming she is now dead, they still might be able to discover how she was receiving her instructions.

JohnRoth wrote:I don't think that is true: Manticore, Haven and Beowulf are rolling up the MAlign's intelligence network using treecats, and they aren't trying to trigger them first. The first instance on Torch, the cat detected something off, but didn't know what it was.

The agent on Torch was unhappy about having an empathy monitor him, but what tripped him was that his slave number matched someone already on planet, who Mesa thought was dead. He committed suicide with poison, not nanotech. The tree cats have been deployed to defend against the nanotech controlled assassins.

Here is the text from Torch of Freedom:
chapter 14 wrote:Now, that's interesting, Judson thought, staying exactly where he was and trying to avoid any betraying sign of his own interest in Mr. Brown Shipsuit. Of course, it's probably nothing. Anybody's got the right to be nervous on their first day on a new planet—especially the kind of people who're arriving here on Torch every day! And if he's heard the reports about the 'cats—or, even worse, the rumors—he may think Genghis can peek inside his head and tell me everything he's thinking or feeling. God knows we've run into enough people who ought to know better who think that, and I can't really blame anyone who does for not liking the thought very much. But still . . . 
His own right hand twitched very slightly on the virtual keyboard only he could see, activating the security camera that snapped a picture as the brown shipsuit sank into the chair in front of one of the Immigration processors. However nervous the newcomer might be, he was obviously at least managing to maintain his aplomb as he answered the interviewer's questions and provided his background information. He wasn't even glancing in Judson and Genghis' direction any longer, either, and he actually managed a smile when he opened his mouth and stuck out his tongue for the Immigration clerk to scan its barcode.

chapter 23 wrote:Harper and Judson looked at each other. "The proverbial hell's bells," muttered Ferry. "The slavers would have had records of their cargo, so they'd assume that Tim here just vanished. Perfect way to disguise an identity, without running the risk of faking a number entirely."

...

He saw Allen's jaws tighten. Then the man's eyes rolled up, he inhaled once, gasped, gasped again . . . and he was unconscious and dying. Judson didn't have any doubt of it. From his little screech, neither did Genghis.
"What in the name of . . ." He shook his head, not sure what to do. Normally, he'd have begun CPR treatment, even though he was pretty sure there was no way to save Allen's life at this point. But there was a nasty-looking greenish slime beginning to ooze out of Allen's mouth, which he was almost certain was the residue or side effect—or both—of some sort of powerful poison. Whatever the stuff was, Van Hale wasn't about to get close to it.
Harper came up, cradling his arm. "What happened?"
"He committed suicide." Judson felt a bit stunned. Everything had happened so fast. From the time Harper tapped Allen on the shoulder to the man's suicide, not more than thirty seconds could have passed. Probably less. Maybe a lot less.
Harper knelt down next to Allen's body, and rolled him onto his back. The former Ballroom killer was careful not to let his hands get anywhere near Allen's mouth.
"Fast-acting poison in a hollow tooth. What in the name of creation is an ex-slave immigrant doing with that kind of equipment?" He looked around, spotted a sturdy-looking stick within reach, and picked it up. Then, used the stick to pry open Allen's mouth so he could look at the man's tongue.
"And . . . that's a Manpower breeding mark, for sure and certain. No chance at all it's cosmetic."
He straightened up from the corpse and rocked back on his heels, now squatting instead of kneeling. "What the hell is going on, Judson?"
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:36 pm

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Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA

tlb wrote:
Montrose Toast wrote:Who says all of the MAligh operatives have the same triggers?

Some of the "good guys" might be a different [a follow up] layer of the onion...

stewart wrote:The triggers (and fatal seizures) seem more to (1) prevent an interrogation and (2) limit any access to the back-trail up the counter-intel path.

The SLN KNOWS they were penetrated; without Treecats, the SLN Intel are more limited in methods of identification and isolation.

tlb wrote:Even with tree cats, things are very limited since they only sense when the nanotech overrides the subject's volition.
The Solarian team does know who the controlling agent was for some of the agents. Assuming she is now dead, they still might be able to discover how she was receiving her instructions.

JohnRoth wrote:I don't think that is true: Manticore, Haven and Beowulf are rolling up the MAlign's intelligence network using treecats, and they aren't trying to trigger them first. The first instance on Torch, the cat detected something off, but didn't know what it was.

The agent on Torch was unhappy about having an empathy monitor him, but what tripped him was that his slave number matched someone already on planet, who Mesa thought was dead. He committed suicide with poison, not nanotech. The tree cats have been deployed to defend against the nanotech controlled assassins.

Here is the text from Torch of Freedom:
chapter 14 wrote:Now, that's interesting, Judson thought, staying exactly where he was and trying to avoid any betraying sign of his own interest in Mr. Brown Shipsuit. Of course, it's probably nothing. Anybody's got the right to be nervous on their first day on a new planet—especially the kind of people who're arriving here on Torch every day! And if he's heard the reports about the 'cats—or, even worse, the rumors—he may think Genghis can peek inside his head and tell me everything he's thinking or feeling. God knows we've run into enough people who ought to know better who think that, and I can't really blame anyone who does for not liking the thought very much. But still . . . 
His own right hand twitched very slightly on the virtual keyboard only he could see, activating the security camera that snapped a picture as the brown shipsuit sank into the chair in front of one of the Immigration processors. However nervous the newcomer might be, he was obviously at least managing to maintain his aplomb as he answered the interviewer's questions and provided his background information. He wasn't even glancing in Judson and Genghis' direction any longer, either, and he actually managed a smile when he opened his mouth and stuck out his tongue for the Immigration clerk to scan its barcode.

chapter 23 wrote:Harper and Judson looked at each other. "The proverbial hell's bells," muttered Ferry. "The slavers would have had records of their cargo, so they'd assume that Tim here just vanished. Perfect way to disguise an identity, without running the risk of faking a number entirely."

...

He saw Allen's jaws tighten. Then the man's eyes rolled up, he inhaled once, gasped, gasped again . . . and he was unconscious and dying. Judson didn't have any doubt of it. From his little screech, neither did Genghis.
"What in the name of . . ." He shook his head, not sure what to do. Normally, he'd have begun CPR treatment, even though he was pretty sure there was no way to save Allen's life at this point. But there was a nasty-looking greenish slime beginning to ooze out of Allen's mouth, which he was almost certain was the residue or side effect—or both—of some sort of powerful poison. Whatever the stuff was, Van Hale wasn't about to get close to it.
Harper came up, cradling his arm. "What happened?"
"He committed suicide." Judson felt a bit stunned. Everything had happened so fast. From the time Harper tapped Allen on the shoulder to the man's suicide, not more than thirty seconds could have passed. Probably less. Maybe a lot less.
Harper knelt down next to Allen's body, and rolled him onto his back. The former Ballroom killer was careful not to let his hands get anywhere near Allen's mouth.
"Fast-acting poison in a hollow tooth. What in the name of creation is an ex-slave immigrant doing with that kind of equipment?" He looked around, spotted a sturdy-looking stick within reach, and picked it up. Then, used the stick to pry open Allen's mouth so he could look at the man's tongue.
"And . . . that's a Manpower breeding mark, for sure and certain. No chance at all it's cosmetic."
He straightened up from the corpse and rocked back on his heels, now squatting instead of kneeling. "What the hell is going on, Judson?"


The important piece is just before the first chunk you quoted. I've underlined the really important bit.

Torch of Freedom, Chapter 14 wrote:Several hours later, neither Judson nor Genghis felt particularly cheerful.
It wasn't as if the arriving shuttles were steeped solely in gloom, despair, and bloodthirsty hatred. In fact, there was an incredible joyousness to most of the arrivals, a sense of having finally set foot on the soil of a planet which was actually theirs.
Of being home at last.
But there were scars, and all too often still-bleeding psychic wounds, on even the most joyous, and they beat on Genghis' focused sensitivity like hammers. The fact that the 'cat was deliberately looking for dangerous fault lines, pockets of particularly brooding darkness, forced him to open himself to all the rest of the pain, as well. Judson hated to ask it of his companion, but he knew Genghis too well not to ask. Treecats were direct souls, with only limited patience for some of humanity's sillier social notions. And, to be honest, Genghis had a lot less trouble accepting and supporting the Ballroom's mentality than Judson himself did. Yet Genghis also understood how important Torch was not simply to his own person, but to all of the other two-legs around him, and that much of its hope for the future rested on the need to identify people whose choice of actions might jeopardize what the Torches were striving so mightily to build. Not only that, Torch was his home, too, now, and treecats understood responsibility to clan and nesting place.
Which didn't make either of them feel especially cheerful.
<That one.> Genghis' fingers flickered suddenly.
"What?"
Judson twitched. So far, despite the inevitable emotional fatigue, today's transport load of new immigrants had contained few "problem children," and he'd settled into a sort of cruise control as he watched them filtering through the arrival interview process.
<That one,> Genghis' fingers repeated. <The tall one in the brown shipsuit, by the right lift bank. With dark hair.>
"Got him," Judson said a moment later, although there was nothing particularly outwardly impressive about the newcomer. He was obviously from one of the general utility genetic lines. "What about him?"
<Not sure,> Genghis replied, his fingers moving with unusual slowness. <He's . . . nervous. Worried about something.>
"Worried," Judson repeated. He reached up and ran his fingers caressingly down Genghis' spine. "A lot of two-legs worry about a lot of things, O Bane of Chipmunks," he said. "What's so special about this one?"
<He just . . . tastes wrong.> Genghis was obviously trying to find a way to describe something he didn't fully understand himself, Judson realized. <He was nervous when he got off the lift, but he got a lot more nervous after he got off the lift.>
Judson frowned, wondering what to make of that. Then the newcomer looked up, and Judson's own mental antennae quivered.
The man in the brown shipsuit was trying hard not to let it show, but he wasn't looking up at the crowded arrival concourse in general. No, he was looking directly at Judson Van Hale and Genghis . . . and trying to make it look as if he weren't.
"Do you think he got more worried when he saw you, Genghis?" he asked quietly. Genghis cocked his head, obviously thinking hard, and then his right truehand flipped up in the sign for "Y" and nodded in affirmation.
Now, that's interesting, Judson thought, staying exactly where he was and trying to avoid any betraying sign of his own interest in Mr. Brown Shipsuit. Of course, it's probably nothing. Anybody's got the right to be nervous on their first day on a new planet—especially the kind of people who're arriving here on Torch every day! And if he's heard the reports about the 'cats—or, even worse, the rumors—he may think Genghis can peek inside his head and tell me everything he's thinking or feeling. God knows we've run into enough people who ought to know better who think that, and I can't really blame anyone who does for not liking the thought very much. But still . . .
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