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And on the third... Spoilers

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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by phillies   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:42 pm

phillies
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tlb wrote:
phillies wrote:The Baruch Plan was that Germany should be totally deindustrialized after the war, so that it could never again cause a world war. It would be permitted limited light industry for clothing, but would elsewise be limited to agricultural activities. No metal working. No machine tools. The plan was not adopted.

ldwechsler wrote:It was the Morgenthau Plan, named for the US Secretary of the Treasury and it was not adopted. Main reason was fear of rise of Nazis in fury at first but Russian interference and theft of just about all the tools, etc., in their area led the US, UK and France to build up West Germany.

Charybdis wrote:We, the post-WW2 generations, tend to forget why such plans (Baruch & Morgenthau) made sense at the time they were proposed. Prussia/Germany, during and after its 19th century 'consolidation' following the Napoleonic Era, was a flat-out aggressive country. In 1795, Prussia joined with Russia and Hapsburg Austria to wipe Poland off of the map in a total partition of the country.

In 1864 there was the Schleswig Wars where land was annexed from Denmark under joint Prussian & Austrian forces. This was quickly followed in 1866 with the Austro-Prussian War where Prussia further consolidated the borders of what would become Imperial Germany by taking formerly independent polities (duchies, counties, principalities) that had been affiliated with Austria.

In 1870, Napoleon III foolishly attacked Prussia over a dispute concerning the Spanish Monarchy succession. The war ended in 6 months with Napoleon III captured and portions of French provinces Alsace & Lorraine being added to Prussia. While this war was going on and the Prussians were besieging Paris, the German Empire was proclaimed at the French Palace of Versailles (1871).

Add the WW1 and WW2 aggressions and you can see where our predecessors got the viewpoint of a totally demilitarized and forced agrarian-only Germany. The active aggression of Stalin & the Soviet Union from the 1920s on made these plans untenable and thus we have BMWs to drive. :lol:

Fixed the attribution that had me saying something that came from Phillies.
Some of what you list as German aggression could be included in the consolidation of the German state out of the patchwork of duchies, principalities and so on. It seems more aggressive to us because it was more recent; the similar activities that united Britain or France were ancient history by then. The unification of Italy was less prominent.
Certainly Poland's partition was aggressive, but Alsace & Lorraine have a more contentious history over whether they are French or German.

PS. The Baruch Plan had to do with international control of atomic energy and not Germany according to Wikipedia.


Thank you for the correction that I was remembering Morgenthau, not Baruch.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:26 pm

ldwechsler
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The basic reasoning behind the plan was that Germans was a real danger to all its neighbors. Several nations, including Czechoslovakia, Poland, and France, tossed out all the ethnic Germans they could find, even those who had lived there for generations. They remembered how Hitler had used them to expand.

The Germans did not win friends through their aggression. All of their neighbors hated and feared them, although a couple of the countries that worked with them claimed they had been forced into it. There are still major resentments today over German actions during that war.

Add to that the fact Moregenthau, a Jew, was fully aware of the Holocaust despite the best efforts of some media groups to block news of that during the war, and he was really out to make certain that the Germans would never again rise.

He failed.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:42 am

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ldwechsler wrote:Even before the suicides, it was clear that the police forces knew something was wrong. They could have gotten the information from assorted nasty means and learned what was happening. This just made it simple. Actually, another benefit was that it ensured that those who survived were on the right side. Talk about a double edged sword. The bad guys die, the good guys get verified as good.
I'm not sure I'd go that far. If they'd picked up an Onion member who wasn't part of that cell then the questions likely wouldn't have triggered their self-destruct. They might still know the people they were questioned about but wouldn't know they were also in the Onion.

The winnowing by questioning is certainly better than nothing, but what will be better is when the good guys can come up with a quick reliable field test for the MAlign nanos. Then you know whether the person is associated with the inner Onion even if you don't know what their self-destruct triggers are (or their suicide attack triggers if they're just a patsy)

And best will be when they figure out how to neutralize the nanos without killing the prisoner. Then you can stun or knock out the suspect, check for the presence of MAlign nanotech, disable that tech and have a live prisoner to question. :D
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