Maya Sector(SPOILER)

Louis R wrote:That conclusion is predicated on an assumption about Barregos' plan that I don't think is confirmed in text - nor, of course, is it refuted. To whit, that he wasn't doing anything to create trigger conditions.

There are indications that the original Sepoy rebellion didn't 'just happen'. I see no reason that it's impossible that someone hoping to profit from a reprise would take steps not just to ensure that the reprise didn't end equally badly but would happen at the most profitable moment. Actually, since it's pretty clear that he was taking steps of some kind and had been for a considerable time, I suppose it would be more correct to say that there's no reason not to think they may include steps to ensure that the disaffection he needs is sufficiently widespread. If he's not merely anticipating it but promoting it [or was anticipating doing so in the future, the Malign may not be the only people whose plans had to be accelerated given the outcome of the Havenite Wars], then he could well be planning to set the match to the fuse himself.

Or, of course, he may feel that the disaffection he sees is mounting quite satisfactorily without him needing to meddle. So his decision to light the fuse becomes contingent on the kegs heaping high enough and the necessary ducks being appropriately aligned. Like everybody's decisions are contingent on some factor or other.

Weird Harold wrote:
I think that is a semantic nitpick.

The Sepoy Option was contingent on other people doing certain things, but without doing anything to influence those people into triggering the option into effect.

Not that they were discouraging anyone from being stupid.

They were confident enough that the circumstances to trigger secession would come that they prepared to, first, survive and then, second, minimize the damage.

Sigs wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Australian independence.

https://www.australia.gov.au/about-gove ... federation

I counter with American Independence.Same empire, different time period different outcome.

Sigs wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Australian independence.



I counter with American Independence.Same empire, different time period different outcome.

--------------

Australian / NZ , Canadian and South African independence came as a result of "reward" for support of Brit Empire in multiple wars of late 1800's & esp WWI;
AND that Victoria's PM's had a better grasp on reality than Geo III.

-- Stewart

JohnRoth wrote:
The technology that Barregos had access to via Erewhon was end-of-first-war technology, and not all of it. He didn't know about Spindle when he started his own military buildup. Even so, end-of-first-war Manticoran technology is plenty good enough to give Solarian tech a really bad day. See the Battle of Torch - even with Cataphracts the combined obsolete Havenite and current Solarian ships were overmatched.

As far as Spindle is concerned, those were SD(P) pods with Mark 23 missiles and a Mark 25 control missile. They were also using Ghost Rider drones to cut the light-speed communication lag in half. Even so, they were probably limited by the number of control links they had, or they could have blown Crandall's entire formation into navigation hazards in one launch, rather than just a third of them.

As far as the MAlign connection is concerned, Barregos didn't need to know about it. All he needed was to be able to see the results off their manipulations. It didn't matter that he didn't see the manipulator behind the scene. He knew the wheels were coming off.

munroburton wrote:The League's unique constitutional arrangements mean that once a Verge system had paid their protectorate "fees" and become a full member, they are theoretically equal to, for example, Beowulf in autonomy and member rights. Including the right to secede and the right to raise a self-defense force.

OrlandoNative wrote:

munroburton wrote:The League's unique constitutional arrangements mean that once a Verge system had paid their protectorate "fees" and become a full member, they are theoretically equal to, for example, Beowulf in autonomy and member rights. Including the right to secede and the right to raise a self-defense force.

I get the feeling that a "new" full membership in the League wasn't something that happened often - if at all; at least in the more current time period. I can't see where such systems would easily forget that "price" they had to pay to "join". And if that were so; some of the votes the "Mandarins" had managed to get passed wouldn't have made it; since a single "nay" vote would have vetoed it.

(Almost?) all the systems that are noted as being "full" members were ones settled either *before* the creation of the League or shortly thereafter.

OrlandoNative wrote:

munroburton wrote:The League's unique constitutional arrangements mean that once a Verge system had paid their protectorate "fees" and become a full member, they are theoretically equal to, for example, Beowulf in autonomy and member rights. Including the right to secede and the right to raise a self-defense force.

I get the feeling that a "new" full membership in the League wasn't something that happened often - if at all; at least in the more current time period. I can't see where such systems would easily forget that "price" they had to pay to "join". And if that were so; some of the votes the "Mandarins" had managed to get passed wouldn't have made it; since a single "nay" vote would have vetoed it.

(Almost?) all the systems that are noted as being "full" members were ones settled either *before* the creation of the League or shortly thereafter.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I keep considering the numbers.
BF boasts 2,000 DNs and SDs.
That is about one ship per system, less if you count the Shell and Verge systems.
BF probably has more total ships but far less tonnage and combat power. SHTF and the SLN does not have enough ships to compel acquiesce. Throw in neobarbs and mysterious ghost ships offing BF units and the SL is in deep feces.

Not to mention the System Defense Forces of the core worlds. Each one was small compared to Battle Fleet, but Beowulf had a couple squadrons of SDs and other core worlds had similar numbers. Each one of those is larger than the navies of most independent worlds (Mesa only had a couple dozen battlecruisers, for example).

Overall, there's probably as many combined hulls in the SDFs than there is in all of the SLN, but the SLN would have the tonnage advantage (if the Reserve was worth more than scrap, anyway).

Castenea wrote:Yeas and no. As KZT indicates there are very few SDFs with ships of the wall. Most systems in the SL would have had little more than under 100 cutters assigned to their revenue collection and Search and rescue agencies, along with maybe a few dozen LACs if they pretend to have a Navy.

I would not be surprised if for may SL members, and worlds that are not SL members in the Core, they have periodic fits where some paranoid becomes a leader of government with visions of a great all conquering Navy. Despite his visions of squadrons of the wall, all that happens is that the SDF replaces much of it's oldest equipment, recruits up to something resembling full strength, and acquires a handful net new ships.

IE before PM paranoiac : 300LAC, 2 FG, 2DD
After PM paranoiac: 350LAC, 3DD, and the plans for a never built CL

Theemile wrote:

Castenea wrote:Yeas and no. As KZT indicates there are very few SDFs with ships of the wall. Most systems in the SL would have had little more than under 100 cutters assigned to their revenue collection and Search and rescue agencies, along with maybe a few dozen LACs if they pretend to have a Navy.

I would not be surprised if for may SL members, and worlds that are not SL members in the Core, they have periodic fits where some paranoid becomes a leader of government with visions of a great all conquering Navy. Despite his visions of squadrons of the wall, all that happens is that the SDF replaces much of it's oldest equipment, recruits up to something resembling full strength, and acquires a handful net new ships.

IE before PM paranoiac : 300LAC, 2 FG, 2DD
After PM paranoiac: 350LAC, 3DD, and the plans for a never built CL

Most importantly, there hasn't been a NEED for a large self defense force for 100s of years. The last SLN fleet battle was over 350 years ago, and that was Frontier Fleet. With Frontier Fleet patroling the spaceways, and Battle Fleet's Mailed Gauntlet poised to strike, why would every individual star need their own navy? As David once said, how many Arleigh Burke's does St. Louis own? It doesn't need them, thanks to the US military, and the local taxpayers arn't just going to pony up for one unless there is a real need. Beowulf's commitment to securing the wormhole, and it's independant daughter colonies is the reason it has such a large force, and is probably paid for by revenue from said sources. What reasons do the other 1782 known members have for fielding multiple wallers?

In fact, we've been told that only 1% of Honorverse navies, or approximately 25 forces, can field a squadron of capital ships or more. We know of 7 of those navies (RMN, IAN, ESN, RHN, GSN, SLN, BSDF), and have 3 more possibles (Talbot, Asgerd, and Mannerheim). There is only room for another dozen to dozen and 1/2 Waller navies, and none of them can be large. The RMN had been in 3rd place since 1875, or when they hit ~100 wallers, meaning all other powers are smaller than that, or have had intense modern construction, like the Haven Sector powers.