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Maya Sector(SPOILER)

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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:35 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
Castenea wrote:Yeas and no. As KZT indicates there are very few SDFs with ships of the wall. Most systems in the SL would have had little more than under 100 cutters assigned to their revenue collection and Search and rescue agencies, along with maybe a few dozen LACs if they pretend to have a Navy.

I would not be surprised if for may SL members, and worlds that are not SL members in the Core, they have periodic fits where some paranoid becomes a leader of government with visions of a great all conquering Navy. Despite his visions of squadrons of the wall, all that happens is that the SDF replaces much of it's oldest equipment, recruits up to something resembling full strength, and acquires a handful net new ships.

IE before PM paranoiac : 300LAC, 2 FG, 2DD
After PM paranoiac: 350LAC, 3DD, and the plans for a never built CL


Most importantly, there hasn't been a NEED for a large self defense force for 100s of years. The last SLN fleet battle was over 350 years ago, and that was Frontier Fleet. With Frontier Fleet patroling the spaceways, and Battle Fleet's Mailed Gauntlet poised to strike, why would every individual star need their own navy? As David once said, how many Arleigh Burke's does St. Louis own? It doesn't need them, thanks to the US military, and the local taxpayers arn't just going to pony up for one unless there is a real need. Beowulf's commitment to securing the wormhole, and it's independant daughter colonies is the reason it has such a large force, and is probably paid for by revenue from said sources. What reasons do the other 1782 known members have for fielding multiple wallers?

In fact, we've been told that only 1% of Honorverse navies, or approximately 25 forces, can field a squadron of capital ships or more. We know of 7 of those navies (RMN, IAN, ESN, RHN, GSN, SLN, BSDF), and have 3 more possibles (Talbot, Asgerd, and Mannerheim). There is only room for another dozen to dozen and 1/2 Waller navies, and none of them can be large. The RMN had been in 3rd place since 1875, or when they hit ~100 wallers, meaning all other powers are smaller than that, or have had intense modern construction, like the Haven Sector powers.


And we've just been told (in UH) that Mannerheim has a wormhole of its own to protect. It goes to Warner, which is 103 ly from Beowulf. (UH, p. 404)[/quote]

Let us keep in mind that there are different levels of navies. Most were fairly small and had non-capital ships. And just about all were technologically far behind.
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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:49 pm

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Castenea wrote:Yeas and no. As KZT indicates there are very few SDFs with ships of the wall. Most systems in the SL would have had little more than under 100 cutters assigned to their revenue collection and Search and rescue agencies, along with maybe a few dozen LACs if they pretend to have a Navy.

I would not be surprised if for may SL members, and worlds that are not SL members in the Core, they have periodic fits where some paranoid becomes a leader of government with visions of a great all conquering Navy. Despite his visions of squadrons of the wall, all that happens is that the SDF replaces much of it's oldest equipment, recruits up to something resembling full strength, and acquires a handful net new ships.

IE before PM paranoiac : 300LAC, 2 FG, 2DD
After PM paranoiac: 350LAC, 3DD, and the plans for a never built CL



TheEmile wrote:Most importantly, there hasn't been a NEED for a large self defense force for 100s of years. The last SLN fleet battle was over 350 years ago, and that was Frontier Fleet. With Frontier Fleet patroling the spaceways, and Battle Fleet's Mailed Gauntlet poised to strike, why would every individual star need their own navy? As David once said, how many Arleigh Burke's does St. Louis own? It doesn't need them, thanks to the US military, and the local taxpayers arn't just going to pony up for one unless there is a real need. Beowulf's commitment to securing the wormhole, and it's independant daughter colonies is the reason it has such a large force, and is probably paid for by revenue from said sources. What reasons do the other 1782 known members have for fielding multiple wallers?

In fact, we've been told that only 1% of Honorverse navies, or approximately 25 forces, can field a squadron of capital ships or more. We know of 7 of those navies (RMN, IAN, ESN, RHN, GSN, SLN, BSDF), and have 3 more possibles (Talbot, Asgerd, and Mannerheim). There is only room for another dozen to dozen and 1/2 Waller navies, and none of them can be large. The RMN had been in 3rd place since 1875, or when they hit ~100 wallers, meaning all other powers are smaller than that, or have had intense modern construction, like the Haven Sector powers.


JohnRoth wrote:And we've just been told (in UH) that Mannerheim has a wormhole of its own to protect. It goes to Warner, which is 103 ly from Beowulf. (UH, p. 404)


ldwechsler wrote:Let us keep in mind that there are different levels of navies. Most were fairly small and had non-capital ships. And just about all were technologically far behind.


Yes, let's keep in mind what we were told.

Mannerheim has at least several squadrons of modern (at least to SL standards) battlecruisers. It has the most powerful SDF of any of the Renaissance Factor systems. There was a substantial discussion about whether it had any DN or SDs; there is no textev that it does, but there is also no textev that it doesn't.

ALSO - Would you PLEASE learn how to handle attribution correctly. This time you said I said something that, in fact, The Emile said. I'm getting tired of fixing your messes.
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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by Theemile   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:23 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Let us keep in mind that there are different levels of navies. Most were fairly small and had non-capital ships. And just about all were technologically far behind.


Yes, let's keep in mind what we were told.

Mannerheim has at least several squadrons of modern (at least to SL standards) battlecruisers. It has the most powerful SDF of any of the Renaissance Factor systems. There was a substantial discussion about whether it had any DN or SDs; there is no textev that it does, but there is also no textev that it doesn't.

<Snip>.


Actually, we know Mannerheim has at least 1 dreadnaught in addition to the BCs, the Mannerheim navy conversation happens on the dreadnaught flagship (MSDS Vivienne) at Felix. How many others they own is the unknown variable.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by stewart   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:02 pm

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And we've just been told (in UH) that Mannerheim has a wormhole of its own to protect. It goes to Warner, which is 103 ly from Beowulf. (UH, p. 404)[/quote]

Let us keep in mind that there are different levels of navies. Most were fairly small and had non-capital ships. And just about all were technologically far behind.[/quote]

-----------------

We ALSO know that (1) Mannerheim is one of the key elements of the Renaissance group (MALIGN) and
(2) they have another unadvertised wormhole to CONGO/TORCH which they maintain a squadron of BC's to watch.

-- Stewart
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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:30 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:And we've just been told (in UH) that Mannerheim has a wormhole of its own to protect. It goes to Warner, which is 103 ly from Beowulf. (UH, p. 404)

ldwechsler wrote:Let us keep in mind that there are different levels of navies. Most were fairly small and had non-capital ships. And just about all were technologically far behind.

stewart wrote:We ALSO know that (1) Mannerheim is one of the key elements of the Renaissance group (MALIGN) and
(2) they have another unadvertised wormhole to CONGO/TORCH which they maintain a squadron of BC's to watch.

-- Stewart

Please try to preserve the quote structure; use the preview button before you submit to check that people are mentioned with the correct quotes.
You do not need the dashed line if all the quotes are in their boxes.
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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by Sigs   » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:10 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Of course, Barregos et al could have been at one point part of the MAlign and so gotten an insight into their long term plans. Coupled with visible signs of the fracturing, the Sepoy was more than a contingency plan. It was a plan to deal with a real threat.

What exactly were those visible signs. The League had likely been in the exactly same corrupt state for decades or centuries, no-one could have foreseen the collapse of the League outside of the MA and the GA since the MA was pulling the strings and the GA had extreme technological superiority.
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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by Sigs   » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:17 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
ywing14 wrote:
Definitely can't rule out that premise. I don't believe Barregos was ever directly involved in the plans. However, I think it's probable the MAlign was aware of his thinking and encouraged his plans indirectly. And having thought about your post I have to agree with you that it was not a contingency place.


As we see from the visit of the ersatz Prince Michael, the MA was trying at least to involve Maya in a sector wide equivalent of the "Manticoran" supported insurrection that Firebrand (and others) were doing in the vicinity of the Talbott Sector. I suspect they were doing the same thing in other regions of space under the influence of OFS.

They very well might have been trying to involve them but to my understanding there was no outside involvement or encouragement for the outright revolution, if the MA was involved they would not need to send agents to try and instigate a revolt as they would already know about it and if either one of the leaders of the revolt were MA agents gone rogue they would likely be long dead, I doubt that the MA would leave someone who knows even a bit of knowledge of the MA alive if they betrayed them and left.
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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by Sigs   » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:32 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Louis R wrote:I'm quite certain it wasn't merely a contingency plan.


I think that is a semantic nitpick.

The Sepoy Option was contingent on other people doing certain things, but without doing anything to influence those people into triggering the option into effect.

Not that they were discouraging anyone from being stupid. :D

They were confident enough that the circumstances to trigger secession would come that they prepared to, first, survive and then, second, minimize the damage.

Problem with that is the fact that you would have to at least ensure that the officers deployed to Maya would be willing to commit treason. Both the Governor and the Admiral are smart enough to want the best they could get, but they also have to get the people who will willingly commit treason against the League when the time is right. Its all fine and good to have a grand plan but when the sh*t hits the fan the last thing you want is to have mutiny on your hands and dozens of revolts on all of your ships and orbital bases and surface bases.
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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by kzt   » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:43 pm

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Sigs wrote:
They were confident enough that the circumstances to trigger secession would come that they prepared to, first, survive and then, second, minimize the damage.

Problem with that is the fact that you would have to at least ensure that the officers deployed to Maya would be willing to commit treason. Both the Governor and the Admiral are smart enough to want the best they could get, but they also have to get the people who will willingly commit treason against the League when the time is right. Its all fine and good to have a grand plan but when the sh*t hits the fan the last thing you want is to have mutiny on your hands and dozens of revolts on all of your ships and orbital bases and surface bases.[/quote]
That’s the power of plot.
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Re: Maya Sector(SPOILER)
Post by Sigs   » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:10 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
Sigs wrote:
Problem is that they(The governor and the Admiral) had to bring in most of their inner circle part of the way if not all the way in during the planning. Nothing worse than planning treason and finding out during the execution phase that the officers you were counting on are loyal to the SLN.



Barregos has already "retired" one Lieutenant Governor whose loyalty was not pointed in the right direction. And replaced them with one whose loyalty he was more sure of. I think we can say he is aware of the risk, and is prepared to ... minimize it, when necessary.

It would be time consuming to get willing and supportive people all the way in, and things get screechy if a lot of Frontier security personnel start dropping in one sector.
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