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What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:50 pm

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Theemile wrote:The part in SoS where Helen is given the task of astrogating the best path from the Lynx terminus to Spindle with the Hexapuma, is probably the best window into the issues of plotting a course in hyperspace that we have seen in the series.

Though it seems odd to me that a warship's astrogation computers would silently effectively default to fuel conservation over transit speed. Dropping to lower bands to use its grav wave does let you keep reactors shut down or at idle, and draw your power through the sails.

A merchant ship might choose to travel a while in the Beta or Gamma bands to avoid burning fuel - though even through I'm surprised that hydrogen savings (and longer service intervals on the fusion reactor) offset the lower utilization and extra days of paying the salaries and loan on the freighter on that leg of their travel.

But I'd think a warship would default to quickest safe transit routes and never would have offered to dip into lower bands to catch a wave. (Though it's certainly possible the training officer or captain or somebody changed the defaults in order to make it a learning exercise for Helen)
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by saber964   » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:47 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:The part in SoS where Helen is given the task of astrogating the best path from the Lynx terminus to Spindle with the Hexapuma, is probably the best window into the issues of plotting a course in hyperspace that we have seen in the series.

Though it seems odd to me that a warship's astrogation computers would silently effectively default to fuel conservation over transit speed. Dropping to lower bands to use its grav wave does let you keep reactors shut down or at idle, and draw your power through the sails.

A merchant ship might choose to travel a while in the Beta or Gamma bands to avoid burning fuel - though even through I'm surprised that hydrogen savings (and longer service intervals on the fusion reactor) offset the lower utilization and extra days of paying the salaries and loan on the freighter on that leg of their travel.

But I'd think a warship would default to quickest safe transit routes and never would have offered to dip into lower bands to catch a wave. (Though it's certainly possible the training officer or captain or somebody changed the defaults in order to make it a learning exercise for Helen)

The military doesn't worry over much about saving money when ordered to be somewhere else in a hurry. The do have a budget for training.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:08 am

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cthia wrote:Forward Bases

Looking at the maps, I realize the RMNs most forward bases are represented by terminating ends of the MWJ in both Peep, Solarian and Andermani space. Well, duh.



Consider the ultimate Forward Base - Operation Olympic, the first phase of the invasion of mainland Japan, was to take the southern third of Kyushu, to serve as a forward air base and assembly area. Operation Coronet, the invasion of Honshu, culminated by an armored clash on the Kanto plain outside of Tokyo.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:39 pm

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One other difference in the Honorverse than the current state of affairs is the absence of the sense of skirting too close to "territorial waters."

This seems to happen quite a bit in the real world with a startling escalation as of late. In the Honorverse, you're either in-system or you're not.

Russian bombers buzz North American coastline

US Warplanes intercept Russian nuclear capable bombers flying near Alaska

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:51 am

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cthia wrote:One other difference in the Honorverse than the current state of affairs is the absence of the sense of skirting too close to "territorial waters."

This seems to happen quite a bit in the real world with a startling escalation as of late. In the Honorverse, you're either in-system or you're not.

Russian bombers buzz North American coastline

US Warplanes intercept Russian nuclear capable bombers flying near Alaska

Actually the Honorverse does have such a sense. Its fairly easy to miss or forget since probing that limit only comes up once in the series

[quote='Short Victorious War"]He started to speak, but Mark Sarnow cleared his throat first.
"I think we should consider a forward deployment, instead, Sir," Parks' junior squadron commander said quietly.
"How far forward, Admiral?" The question sounded sharper than Parks had intended, but Sarnow seemed unfazed.
"Right on the twelve-hour limit from Seaford Nine, Sir," he replied, and feet shuffled under the table. "I'm not talking about a permanent presence, but an extended period of maneuvers out there would almost have to make Rollins nervous, and we'd still be outside the territorial limit. He wouldn't have a leg to stand on if he tried to protest our presence, but if he started anything, we'd be close enough to keep our force concentrated and stay with him all the way to his intended target—whatever it might be."
"I'm not sure that would be a good idea, Sir," Konstanzakis objected. "We've already got a light cruiser squadron keeping an eye on the Peeps, and they know it. If we move in with ships of the wall, we up the stakes all around. That sort of deployment makes excellent sense if they're really ready to push the button, but if all they want is an incident, we'd be giving them a golden opportunity to find one, territorial limit or no."[/quote]And the light cruisers that were scouting the Peeps were also parked just outside the 12 hour limit.

David discusses this in more detail in a pearl saved over on thefifthimperium.
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/323/0

All the rest of the discussion about territorial space in the books is about wormhole termini almost always being outside of it -- not about recon or military forces trailing their coats along that boarder.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:05 am

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cthia wrote:One other difference in the Honorverse than the current state of affairs is the absence of the sense of skirting too close to "territorial waters."

This seems to happen quite a bit in the real world with a startling escalation as of late. In the Honorverse, you're either in-system or you're not.

Russian bombers buzz North American coastline

US Warplanes intercept Russian nuclear capable bombers flying near Alaska

Jonathan_S wrote:Actually the Honorverse does have such a sense. Its fairly easy to miss or forget since probing that limit only comes up once in the series

Short Victorious War wrote:He started to speak, but Mark Sarnow cleared his throat first.
"I think we should consider a forward deployment, instead, Sir," Parks' junior squadron commander said quietly.
"How far forward, Admiral?" The question sounded sharper than Parks had intended, but Sarnow seemed unfazed.
"Right on the twelve-hour limit from Seaford Nine, Sir," he replied, and feet shuffled under the table. "I'm not talking about a permanent presence, but an extended period of maneuvers out there would almost have to make Rollins nervous, and we'd still be outside the territorial limit. He wouldn't have a leg to stand on if he tried to protest our presence, but if he started anything, we'd be close enough to keep our force concentrated and stay with him all the way to his intended target—whatever it might be."
"I'm not sure that would be a good idea, Sir," Konstanzakis objected. "We've already got a light cruiser squadron keeping an eye on the Peeps, and they know it. If we move in with ships of the wall, we up the stakes all around. That sort of deployment makes excellent sense if they're really ready to push the button, but if all they want is an incident, we'd be giving them a golden opportunity to find one, territorial limit or no."
And the light cruisers that were scouting the Peeps were also parked just outside the 12 hour limit.

David discusses this in more detail in a pearl saved over on thefifthimperium.
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/323/0

All the rest of the discussion about territorial space in the books is about wormhole termini almost always being outside of it -- not about recon or military forces trailing their coats along that boarder.


Do pardon the "typoo" correction, Jonathan. And thanx, I did miss that. I guess "Out of mind out of sight," I suppose.

I also assume that "popping in and out of systems just to annoy" is actually crossing the line. I'll surely read David's post.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by stewart   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:13 pm

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cthia wrote:One other difference in the Honorverse than the current state of affairs is the absence of the sense of skirting too close to "territorial waters."

This seems to happen quite a bit in the real world with a startling escalation as of late. In the Honorverse, you're either in-system or you're not.

Russian bombers buzz North American coastline

US Warplanes intercept Russian nuclear capable bombers flying near Alaska

Jonathan_S wrote:Actually the Honorverse does have such a sense. Its fairly easy to miss or forget since probing that limit only comes up once in the series


I also assume that "popping in and out of systems just to annoy" is actually crossing the line. I'll surely read David's post.



--------------

During "peace-time" or at least not a hot-war, having a plane "patrol" just outside the actual territorial limits (1) is done in a "freedom of navigation" exercise -- the Soviets did it, the Russians and the PRC Chinese do it and the US and NATO do it.
(2) Response is usually a air defense trigger "escort" to assist the "visitor" in avoiding the territorial airspace.
(3) the "intruder" can use it to test response/reaction times and what type of response -- F-106 or F-4 escorts to Soviet Bears, F-15e or F-22 response to 2018/19 Russian Bears & Badgers

During a hot war, an enemy patrol can be used to trigger an alert status as a harassment measure.

-- Stewart
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:43 pm

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If nothing else, skimming just outside territorial limits can bring you a lot of information about communications, traffic, volume of activity and locations of departure/destination points within a system. Sure, there is a massive time delay but you are getting all this information as you curve around the system (you really don't want to have a classic starship just sitting there hanging around unless it's really stealthy and then you might want to have it do a silent fly-through).
So do a long arch with sensitive passive sensors and plot what shows up. That will proved potential targeting info. You might even to be able to take images (like astronomers do) and do "photo analysis".
You do know that is what the SR-71 fleet was doing and the Russian Bears etc have been doing. Look & Listen -and collect the data for delivery home.

It would appear that, during the war, Manticore was capturing systems to take them out of the supply sources for the Peeps and to keep the systems from being used as bases for resupply points or to be forward operations nodes for Haven. While Manticore did put troops on the ground and certainly ships in system, they haven't been mentioned as conquering them to add them to add as colonies or as part of the Kingdom.
Did they interfere with the government of said systems. Well, yes. Primarily to remove Haven but very little has been said about what was put in place involving the government of the planets/systems involved.
Actually, that wasn't ever part of what are given in the story lines except with Masadda (and why) though we were told a fair amount about the way Haven treated what were clearly conquests under their long range plans and the impacts on the populations plus how they were controlled. Also such nice touches as the entire ship class of Battleships for overwatch and population control by fear of reprisal and ability to deliver massive strikes with something a subjugated planet couldn't hope of hurting but was also giant reminder in the sky.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:07 am

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Brigade XO wrote:If nothing else, skimming just outside territorial limits can bring you a lot of information about communications, traffic, volume of activity and locations of departure/destination points within a system. Sure, there is a massive time delay but you are getting all this information as you curve around the system (you really don't want to have a classic starship just sitting there hanging around unless it's really stealthy and then you might want to have it do a silent fly-through).
So do a long arch with sensitive passive sensors and plot what shows up. That will proved potential targeting info. You might even to be able to take images (like astronomers do) and do "photo analysis".
You do know that is what the SR-71 fleet was doing and the Russian Bears etc have been doing. Look & Listen -and collect the data for delivery home.

It would appear that, during the war, Manticore was capturing systems to take them out of the supply sources for the Peeps and to keep the systems from being used as bases for resupply points or to be forward operations nodes for Haven. While Manticore did put troops on the ground and certainly ships in system, they haven't been mentioned as conquering them to add them to add as colonies or as part of the Kingdom.
Did they interfere with the government of said systems. Well, yes. Primarily to remove Haven but very little has been said about what was put in place involving the government of the planets/systems involved.
Actually, that wasn't ever part of what are given in the story lines except with Masadda (and why) though we were told a fair amount about the way Haven treated what were clearly conquests under their long range plans and the impacts on the populations plus how they were controlled. Also such nice touches as the entire ship class of Battleships for overwatch and population control by fear of reprisal and ability to deliver massive strikes with something a subjugated planet couldn't hope of hurting but was also giant reminder in the sky.

Brilliant, Brigade. I actually missed the obvious implication of testing the waters. Suddenly I flash back to Jurassic Park where the dinosaurs tested the electric fence -- the border between freedom and capture. I also suddenly recall the Russian subs sitting so close off the cost of the US as intelligence gathering missions and not simply catching up on the latest TV shows. LOL

Thanks for the heads up.

****** *

In another thread, I was reminded of how deeply the Cutworm raids cut into Haven's territory. These were deep raids. In the Honorverse, I always thought it odd that the deeper the raid the less defended an objective might be. I suppose this is from the likelihood of any perceived threat to strike so deeply into the heart of ones territory. Somehow this seems counter intuitive. Am I wrong to think the deeper one goes into the heart of an enemy's territory the more defended it should be? Or am I correctly fingering another aberration of Space Opera?

The total hit list and depth of Cutworm included Gaston, Tambourin, Squalus, Hera, Hallman, Augusta, Chantilly, Des Moines, Fordyce, Lorn and Solon.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:03 am

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cthia wrote:In another thread, I was reminded of how deeply the Cutworm raids cut into Haven's territory. These were deep raids. In the Honorverse, I always thought it odd that the deeper the raid the less defended an objective might be. I suppose this is from the likelihood of any perceived threat to strike so deeply into the heart of ones territory. Somehow this seems counter intuitive. Am I wrong to think the deeper one goes into the heart of an enemy's territory the more defended it should be? Or am I correctly fingering another aberration of Space Opera?

The total hit list and depth of Cutworm included Gaston, Tambourin, Squalus, Hera, Hallman, Augusta, Chantilly, Des Moines, Fordyce, Lorn and Solon.

The heaviest defense will always be at the home planet, no matter how deep that may be.

There are logical reasons to avoid making too many deep raids at any one time. The main one is that any ships assigned to the raid will be unavailable for action during the time it take to travel the distance to and from the target. So if you attempt too many at once, you are weakening the forces you have available to respond to a immediate crisis.
The travel time also means that any information you have about force level is more out of date than for a closer target.
Being away longer from base can have an effect of readiness, requiring more maintenance time. Also the longer return time will be harder on any battle damaged ship.

Why would a world be more heavily guarded the further it was from the front (aside from the home world)? That would move forces away from the action. Now that we have system pods and LAC's, most worlds will be defended by forces that are not hyper-capable; allowing the mobile warships to concentrate against the enemy.
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