Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Julia Minor and 8 guests

What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:32 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10716
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Bill Woods wrote:
cthia wrote:Capturing an enemy system involves unconditional surrender. Like the RMN's capture of Masada. Another example is the unconditional surrender of Japan to America. Though that was referred to as an unconditional surrender, it wasn't. It included a proviso that the Emperor would retain his power and be unharmed.
The status of the Emperor was undetermined when the Japanese surrendered. Ultimately, Hirohito retained the title, but he was stripped of his power.

... Would it include an acceptance of the conquered to never wage war against the conquerors again?
"Never" is a long time....

Indeed, but there has to be some messure of a grace period. Jus sayin.

That hardly mattered to the Japanese in the overall scheme of things as it were. The Japanese are a people of devout tradition. The Emperor is more than a figurehead but a super martyr waiting to happen. It was a psychological win for the Japanese when you boil everything down to its constituent parts. the Emperor is it.

I wonder what would have happened if Roosevelt didn't capitulate. I think Roosevelt knew as well as I.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:39 pm

Bill Woods
Captain of the List

Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:39 am

cthia wrote:
Bill Woods wrote: Cagney is excellent.

I've always wondered if the film makers invented that bit. I've never seen any other account of it. It seems like it's there to settle any qualms about, essentially, assassinating Yamamoto. "Well, he tried the same thing first." I guess the whole thing was time-shifted to November '42 because the naval victory seemed too impersonal without the enemy leader dying?

Note: the US Navy base is at Nouméa, not "New Mia".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noum%C3%A9a


Cagney is Halsey reincarnate.

... Admiral Halsey went to Camp Pendleton where The Gallant Hours was being filmed (pictured). William F. Halsey III later remarked that he was startled at how much James Cagney looked like his father did during World War II.[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Galla ... Production

cthia wrote:
The reason I was interested in Noumea was a hunch made by Cagney to fly there instead of Guadalcanal which may have saved his life, but also because I wanted to know its location in relation to Truk.
Nouméa is about 1000 miles SE of Guadalcanal, while Truk is further in the opposite direction. See:
https://mapper.acme.com/?ll=-7.62525,-1 ... %2Cunnamed
As I said, I'm skeptical about that bit of the film; it seems like a long detour on a whim. I don't recall where Halsey is coming from -- Samoa or Fiji?

cthia wrote: Another thing I really enjoyed about the movie was the intense inclusion of the human element, of which I so ever preach. It reminded me of a Weber novel, because the movie zoomed in up close and personal with the Chiefs of Staff. The movie introduced everyone with a little personal background. It splayed open their brilliance, weaknesses and frailties. Much like with McKeon initially.
Yeah.
{Halsey meets [Marine on Guadalcanal]. They have a brief interaction.}
Narrator: "Two nights later [Marine] will be shot by a Japanese sniper [or whatever]."
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
Top
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:51 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10716
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

cthia wrote:
Bill Woods wrote: Cagney is excellent.

I've always wondered if the film makers invented that bit. I've never seen any other account of it. It seems like it's there to settle any qualms about, essentially, assassinating Yamamoto. "Well, he tried the same thing first." I guess the whole thing was time-shifted to November '42 because the naval victory seemed too impersonal without the enemy leader dying?

Note: the US Navy base is at Nouméa, not "New Mia".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noum%C3%A9a


Cagney is Halsey reincarnate.

... Admiral Halsey went to Camp Pendleton where The Gallant Hours was being filmed (pictured). William F. Halsey III later remarked that he was startled at how much James Cagney looked like his father did during World War II.[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Galla ... Production

cthia wrote:
The reason I was interested in Noumea was a hunch made by Cagney to fly there instead of Guadalcanal which may have saved his life, but also because I wanted to know its location in relation to Truk.
Bill Woods wrote:Nouméa is about 1000 miles SE of Guadalcanal, while Truk is further in the opposite direction. See:
https://mapper.acme.com/?ll=-7.62525,-1 ... %2Cunnamed
As I said, I'm skeptical about that bit of the film; it seems like a long detour on a whim. I don't recall where Halsey is coming from -- Samoa or Fiji?

cthia wrote: Another thing I really enjoyed about the movie was the intense inclusion of the human element, of which I so ever preach. It reminded me of a Weber novel, because the movie zoomed in up close and personal with the Chiefs of Staff. The movie introduced everyone with a little personal background. It splayed open their brilliance, weaknesses and frailties. Much like with McKeon initially.
Yeah.
{Halsey meets [Marine on Guadalcanal]. They have a brief interaction.}
Narrator: "Two nights later [Marine] will be shot by a Japanese sniper [or whatever]."
Thanks Bill.

I don't recall, or if there were, any waypoints, but this was Halsey's maiden voyage from Pearl Harbor to assume command of the forces at Guadalcanal. Movie script even included narrative of intel that several high level Admirals, Halsey included, were missing for the "last 2-3 days" from Pearl. As a matter of fact, Halsey's flying boat was spotted by a Japanese sub en route to Guadalcanal across the waters, which is responsible for the plan to assassinate him.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:01 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10716
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Bill Woods wrote:As I said, I'm skeptical about that bit of the film; it seems like a long detour on a whim. I don't recall where Halsey is coming from -- Samoa or Fiji?


It wasn't on a whim Bill. Halsey's communications and code breakers located at Truk picked up increased activity of the Japanese there at Guadalcanal since the flight commenced, and they had been on the same heading for quite some time.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:43 pm

Bill Woods
Captain of the List

Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:39 am

Bill Woods wrote:
cthia wrote:Capturing an enemy system involves unconditional surrender. Like the RMN's capture of Masada. Another example is the unconditional surrender of Japan to America. Though that was referred to as an unconditional surrender, it wasn't. It included a proviso that the Emperor would retain his power and be unharmed.
The status of the Emperor was undetermined when the Japanese surrendered. Ultimately, Hirohito retained the title, but he was stripped of his power.
cthia wrote:That hardly mattered to the Japanese in the overall scheme of things as it were. The Japanese are a people of devout tradition. The Emperor is more than a figurehead but a super martyr waiting to happen. It was a psychological win for the Japanese when you boil everything down to its constituent parts. the Emperor is it.

I wonder what would have happened if Roosevelt didn't capitulate. I think Roosevelt knew as well as I.
Oh, I disagree. When they first offered to surrender, the Japanese tried to maintain the Imperial system.
'Japan would accept the Potsdam Declaration, but would not accept any peace conditions that would "prejudice the prerogatives" of the Emperor. That effectively meant no change in Japan's form of government—that the Emperor of Japan would remain a position of real power.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender ... nese_reply
However, the Allies refused to accept that, and the Japanese backed down. But once that was settled, MacArthur etc. decided that the Emperor would be useful, so they kept Hirohito in place. In the words of Bill Wurtz, "and he still lets the Emperor dress like an emperor, and have very nice things. But don't get confused...."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
Top
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:09 pm

Bill Woods
Captain of the List

Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:39 am

cthia wrote:
Bill Woods wrote:As I said, I'm skeptical about that bit of the film; it seems like a long detour on a whim. I don't recall where Halsey is coming from -- Samoa or Fiji?
cthia wrote:I don't recall, or if there were, any waypoints, but this was Halsey's maiden voyage from Pearl Harbor to assume command of the forces at Guadalcanal. Movie script even included narrative of intel that several high level Admirals, Halsey included, were missing for the "last 2-3 days" from Pearl. As a matter of fact, Halsey's flying boat was spotted by a Japanese sub en route to Guadalcanal across the waters, which is responsible for the plan to assassinate him.
Halsey was already in the South Pacific, on some sort of inspection tour, when Nimitz pulled the plug on Ghormley. Nimitz may have been planning ahead....

Again, I'm skeptical that that sequence is anything more than fiction. I don't think Japanese intel was capable of tracking American admirals that closely.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
Top
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:59 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10716
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

cthia wrote:
Bill Woods wrote:As I said, I'm skeptical about that bit of the film; it seems like a long detour on a whim. I don't recall where Halsey is coming from -- Samoa or Fiji?
cthia wrote:I don't recall, or if there were, any waypoints, but this was Halsey's maiden voyage from Pearl Harbor to assume command of the forces at Guadalcanal. Movie script even included narrative of intel that several high level Admirals, Halsey included, were missing for the "last 2-3 days" from Pearl. As a matter of fact, Halsey's flying boat was spotted by a Japanese sub en route to Guadalcanal across the waters, which is responsible for the plan to assassinate him.
Bill Woods wrote:Halsey was already in the South Pacific, on some sort of inspection tour, when Nimitz pulled the plug on Ghormley. Nimitz may have been planning ahead....

Again, I'm skeptical that that sequence is anything more than fiction. I don't think Japanese intel was capable of tracking American admirals that closely.

I'll have to yield to your obvious superior familiarity with history in general than my reliance on the movie. Especially considering my shock regarding both navy's intel of each other.


I was just as shocked about how the intel of the itinerary of Yamamoto's fell into American hands. Why would Japanese personnel be so lackadaisical about proper protocol in sending that message? That's one aspect I didn't quite grasp in the movie. It stated that America broke Japanese code, but I'm not sure that's true. Unless they were really close beforehand.

At any rate, you're right that Halsey was already in the Pacific when he received orders, but in the movie he was still en route to Guadalcanal. In fact, the Chief of Staffs back in Washington informed the president of the risk of sending the message that had something to do with American code. I remember wondering how he'd get it since Halsey was rerouting to Noumea.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:03 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10716
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

The movie got up close and personal with both Admirals as well. I was a bit gob smacked to learn that US admirals had played poker on a number of occasions with Yamamoto. So much so they knew he was an adept bluffer who consistently got away with it, even though he consistently overplayed his hand.

I guess the equivalent in the Honorverse would be Protector Benjamin studying on Manticore - who could just as easily have become Grayson enemies.

I recall the movie The Hunt For Red October where it was also mentioned that enemies had similarly met at dinners, or suppers.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Vince   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:11 am

Vince
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1565
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:43 pm

cthia wrote:I'll have to yield to your obvious superior familiarity with history in general than my reliance on the movie. Especially considering my shock regarding both navy's intel of each other.


I was just as shocked about how the intel of the itinerary of Yamamoto's fell into American hands. Why would Japanese personnel be so lackadaisical about proper protocol in sending that message? That's one aspect I didn't quite grasp in the movie. It stated that America broke Japanese code, but I'm not sure that's true. Unless they were really close beforehand.

At any rate, you're right that Halsey was already in the Pacific when he received orders, but in the movie he was still en route to Guadalcanal. In fact, the Chief of Staffs back in Washington informed the president of the risk of sending the message that had something to do with American code. I remember wondering how he'd get it since Halsey was rerouting to Noumea.

Oh yes, the Americans definitely broke a lot of Japanese codes. For an excellent history of codes and code breaking throughout the ages (and how they changed history), read The Codebreakers by David Kahn.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
Top
Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:21 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10716
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Vince wrote:
cthia wrote:I'll have to yield to your obvious superior familiarity with history in general than my reliance on the movie. Especially considering my shock regarding both navy's intel of each other.


I was just as shocked about how the intel of the itinerary of Yamamoto's fell into American hands. Why would Japanese personnel be so lackadaisical about proper protocol in sending that message? That's one aspect I didn't quite grasp in the movie. It stated that America broke Japanese code, but I'm not sure that's true. Unless they were really close beforehand.

At any rate, you're right that Halsey was already in the Pacific when he received orders, but in the movie he was still en route to Guadalcanal. In fact, the Chief of Staffs back in Washington informed the president of the risk of sending the message that had something to do with American code. I remember wondering how he'd get it since Halsey was rerouting to Noumea.

Oh yes, the Americans definitely broke a lot of Japanese codes. For an excellent history of codes and code breaking throughout the ages (and how they changed history), read The Codebreakers by David Kahn.

I don't doubt it Vince but the movie spoke of the current Japanese code being problematical. In fact, normal Japanese communication's channels had been compromised by a careless Japanese operator. The message was not coded under the current Japanese code but sent under an older, already compromised code.

I recall wondering if said operator realized his incompetent mistake after Yamamoto was killed. If he had, he had better kept quiet about it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top

Return to Honorverse