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What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:59 am

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cthia wrote:Capturing an enemy system involves unconditional surrender. Like the RMN's capture of Masada. Another example is the unconditional surrender of Japan to America. Though that was referred to as an unconditional surrender, it wasn't. It included a proviso that the Emperor would retain his power and be unharmed.

I suppose unconditional surrender guarantees the conquering side unlimited access to all technologies of the conquered, for starters. Which may be how the US found out about the specially developed torpedoes engineered to work in the shallow waters of Pearl Harbor.

Would it include an acceptance of the conquered to never wage war against the conquerors again? Where, a failure to comply with this condition even in the far future should make it unnecessary for a formal declaration of war before retaliating?

In the Honorverse, how would this apply to capturing an enemy's Home System? Like if the RMN had driven straight to Nouveau Paris and controlled the orbitals.

What comprises an unconditional surrender in the Honorverse?

You seem to be questioning your own statement that conquering a system involves unconditional surrender.
I doubt that a surrender in one war can be taken to meant anything about a future war. Anyway only an act of war would be a failure to comply and then the right to self-defense would cover most reactions: such as the SLN claimed. As with the Solarians, a declaration of war may still be needed internally to activate certain war powers: another example is Manticore during Field of Dishonor. Note that after WW1 the Allies tried to create the situation that Germany would never again have the ability to start a war, but lacked to will to enforce that even 20 years later.
I think the important point about conquering the home planet, is that you have captured the government. Any unit, which refuses to cease action when the government orders surrender, can then be treated as an outlaw. Only a surrender by the government ends a war. If Manticore captured Haven, but the government escaped to Bolthole; then the war would continue. Clearly a single system polity does not have that ability.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:54 am

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About the ability or inability of widely separated Honorverse forces to coordinate their movements across interstellar distances, I just want to point out that making an accurate universal clock time is NOT the primary stumbling block to coordination.

The primary problem is communication lag over long distances and the inability of the forces to notify each other if one of them runs into an unexpected delay. If one force runs into any unexpected problem (technical issue, enemy forces where there weren't supposed to be any, etc etc) that delays or outright aborts their part of an attack, they can't notify the other attack forces, not in time to matter. And being out of contact for months at a time gives plenty of opportunities for those unexpected delays to happen and accumulate.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:27 pm

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evilauthor wrote:About the ability or inability of widely separated Honorverse forces to coordinate their movements across interstellar distances, I just want to point out that making an accurate universal clock time is NOT the primary stumbling block to coordination.

The primary problem is communication lag over long distances and the inability of the forces to notify each other if one of them runs into an unexpected delay. If one force runs into any unexpected problem (technical issue, enemy forces where there weren't supposed to be any, etc etc) that delays or outright aborts their part of an attack, they can't notify the other attack forces, not in time to matter. And being out of contact for months at a time gives plenty of opportunities for those unexpected delays to happen and accumulate.

Do you hear the successive dominoes falling that I indirectly posted about upstream? About a problem compounding a problem, compounding a problem, compounding a problem, compounding a problem? . . .

It is perfectly okay to kiss the KISS principle goodbye. As long as you don't play any favorites - bend over and put your head between your legs, address your butt cheeks and MOOAH! Goodbye.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:35 pm

cthia
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How does the operation of everyday life affect a system under enemy occupation? What does Martial law do to a Manty system captured by Oscar Saint-Just's Republic?

Normally, captured enemy territory is placed under martial law. They are not allowed to flee with valuables. That would either mean firing on civilian ships in the Honorverse or letting them flee? The Peeps can't tax the wealthy if the wealth flees.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:37 pm

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cthia wrote:Capturing an enemy system involves unconditional surrender. Like the RMN's capture of Masada. Another example is the unconditional surrender of Japan to America. Though that was referred to as an unconditional surrender, it wasn't. It included a proviso that the Emperor would retain his power and be unharmed.
The status of the Emperor was undetermined when the Japanese surrendered. Ultimately, Hirohito retained the title, but he was stripped of his power.

... Would it include an acceptance of the conquered to never wage war against the conquerors again?
"Never" is a long time....
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:57 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:...Meet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, ...

When you get a hunch, bet a hunch. He orders twenty Zeroes to intercept the flying boat on its arrival at Guadalcanal.


I don't know how true that part of the movie is, but it is ironic if true
Operation Vengeancewas the American military operation to kill Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of the Imperial Japanese Navy on April 18, 1943, ...
Cagney is excellent.

I've always wondered if the film makers invented that bit. I've never seen any other account of it. It seems like it's there to settle any qualms about, essentially, assassinating Yamamoto. "Well, he tried the same thing first." I guess the whole thing was time-shifted to November '42 because the naval victory seemed too impersonal without the enemy leader dying?

Note: the US Navy base is at Nouméa, not "New Mia".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noum%C3%A9a
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:19 pm

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:...Meet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, ...

When you get a hunch, bet a hunch. He orders twenty Zeroes to intercept the flying boat on its arrival at Guadalcanal.


I don't know how true that part of the movie is, but it is ironic if true
Operation Vengeancewas the American military operation to kill Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of the Imperial Japanese Navy on April 18, 1943, ...
Bill Woods wrote: Cagney is excellent.

I've always wondered if the film makers invented that bit. I've never seen any other account of it. It seems like it's there to settle any qualms about, essentially, assassinating Yamamoto. "Well, he tried the same thing first." I guess the whole thing was time-shifted to November '42 because the naval victory seemed too impersonal without the enemy leader dying?

Note: the US Navy base is at Nouméa, not "New Mia".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noum%C3%A9a


Cagney is Halsey reincarnate.

Thanks Bill. First listening to it, I immediately saw Noumea in my head, being somewhat familiar with Japanese spelling. But a search found no Noumea, nor was it found on several Japanese maps. I wanted to do a broader search but didn't have the time at the time. So the second spelling that I "surreptitiously" adopted was an unverified spelling.

I didn't have the time at the time. Thanks again.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:26 pm

cthia
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Another thing I really enjoyed about the movie was the intense inclusion of the human element, of which I so ever preach. It reminded me of a Weber novel, because the movie zoomed in up close and personal with the Chiefs of Staff. The movie introduced everyone with a little personal background. It splayed open their brilliance, weaknesses and frailties. Much like with McKeon initially.

On both sides.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:08 pm

cthia
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Posts: 10716
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:...Meet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, ...

When you get a hunch, bet a hunch. He orders twenty Zeroes to intercept the flying boat on its arrival at Guadalcanal.


I don't know how true that part of the movie is, but it is ironic if true
Operation Vengeancewas the American military operation to kill Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of the Imperial Japanese Navy on April 18, 1943, ...
Bill Woods wrote: Cagney is excellent.

I've always wondered if the film makers invented that bit. I've never seen any other account of it. It seems like it's there to settle any qualms about, essentially, assassinating Yamamoto. "Well, he tried the same thing first." I guess the whole thing was time-shifted to November '42 because the naval victory seemed too impersonal without the enemy leader dying?

Note: the US Navy base is at Nouméa, not "New Mia".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noum%C3%A9a


cthia wrote:Cagney is Halsey reincarnate.

Thanks Bill. First listening to it, I immediately saw Noumea in my head, being somewhat familiar with Japanese spelling. But a search found no Noumea, nor was it found on several Japanese maps. I wanted to do a broader search but didn't have the time at the time. So the second spelling that I "surreptitiously" adopted was an unverified spelling.

I didn't have the time at the time. Thanks again.


The reason I was interested in Noumea was a hunch made by Cagney to fly there instead of Guadalcanal which may have saved his life, but also because I wanted to know its location in relation to Truk.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:24 pm

cthia
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Posts: 10716
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Capturing an enemy system involves unconditional surrender. Like the RMN's capture of Masada. Another example is the unconditional surrender of Japan to America. Though that was referred to as an unconditional surrender, it wasn't. It included a proviso that the Emperor would retain his power and be unharmed.

I suppose unconditional surrender guarantees the conquering side unlimited access to all technologies of the conquered, for starters. Which may be how the US found out about the specially developed torpedoes engineered to work in the shallow waters of Pearl Harbor.

Would it include an acceptance of the conquered to never wage war against the conquerors again? Where, a failure to comply with this condition even in the far future should make it unnecessary for a formal declaration of war before retaliating?

In the Honorverse, how would this apply to capturing an enemy's Home System? Like if the RMN had driven straight to Nouveau Paris and controlled the orbitals.

What comprises an unconditional surrender in the Honorverse?

You seem to be questioning your own statement that conquering a system involves unconditional surrender.
I doubt that a surrender in one war can be taken to meant anything about a future war. Anyway only an act of war would be a failure to comply and then the right to self-defense would cover most reactions: such as the SLN claimed. As with the Solarians, a declaration of war may still be needed internally to activate certain war powers: another example is Manticore during Field of Dishonor. Note that after WW1 the Allies tried to create the situation that Germany would never again have the ability to start a war, but lacked to will to enforce that even 20 years later.
I think the important point about conquering the home planet, is that you have captured the government. Any unit, which refuses to cease action when the government orders surrender, can then be treated as an outlaw. Only a surrender by the government ends a war. If Manticore captured Haven, but the government escaped to Bolthole; then the war would continue. Clearly a single system polity does not have that ability.
I thought it obvious that I was drawing a comparison between the similarities and differences of the Honorverse and the present, the gist of the thread. We mere mortals can only intuit strategy and tactics as we now know it and try and stretch it to fit the author's much more robust world.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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