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What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:16 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:
Vince wrote:Carrier task force.

In the USN:
CV = Carrier of heaVier than air (planes), as opposed to lighter than air (dirigibles or blimps)
TF = Task Force

I thought CV was for Carrier Vessel.


Nope. The V is from "Voler", the French verb for "To Fly"
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:43 pm

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kzt wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:At the risk of sounding like a feminist I would point out that matriarchal governed societies would have far less organized warfare than patriarchal societies because the risks verses reward ratio is so much higher.

Since those have never actually existed....

I beg your pardon! Where do you think my beloved Wonder Woman hails from? Hmm? It's not a myth. Big bold beautiful buxom babes certainly isn't a myth. Ask Homer. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:00 pm

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Day vs Night Operations

The difference between daytime and nighttime operations seem to be nonexistent as well in space. Although it seems strategy could be formulated to include it if normal ship operations are synchronized with planet time. Though I don't recall an instance where a particular attack was scheduled when the enemy force are operating with a skeletal crew - e.g., when many or most of the crew onboard ship and/or Forts are asleep.

Although ground operations may still be at the mercy of the sun.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:12 pm

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cthia wrote:Day vs Night Operations

The difference between daytime and nighttime operations seem to be nonexistent as well in space. Although it seems strategy could be formulated to include it if normal ship operations are synchronized with planet time. Though I don't recall an instance where a particular attack was scheduled when the enemy force are operating with a skeletal crew - e.g., when many or most of the crew onboard ship and/or Forts are asleep.

Although ground operations may still be at the mercy of the sun.



Which planet time? There are many planets and each spin, giving multiple time zones on each planet. It's always everytime, somewhere, you just need to pick one.

And if you travel at high speeds, the tau will throw off your clocks, so even if you align your clocks with - say Landing Time, If you patrol the system at .7g for several weeks, your clocks will need to be reset.

Like subs, ships never operate with skeleton crews, they have junior officers sitting in for more senior roles while the "primary" crews sleep - and then wake the primary officers when something happens, or like in SVW, raise the sidewalls and blow the BCs away before anyone can react.

The Junction forts had rotation alert schedules, with an equal portion of them being on alert, on standby, and "off duty" at any time. (With off duty meaning having a smaller, junior backup staff and the rest of the crews being at +15 or so.), so you are never going to catch them all off guard.
Last edited by Theemile on Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:22 pm

TFLYTSNBN

cthia wrote:
kzt wrote:Since those have never actually existed....

I beg your pardon! Where do you think my beloved Wonder Woman hails from? Hmm? It's not a myth. Big bold beautiful buxom babes certainly isn't a myth. Ask Homer. LOL



Don't get me started.

Gul Gadot is impressive, but Linda Carter will always be Wonder Woman to me.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:55 pm

cthia
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:Day vs Night Operations

The difference between daytime and nighttime operations seem to be nonexistent as well in space. Although it seems strategy could be formulated to include it if normal ship operations are synchronized with planet time. Though I don't recall an instance where a particular attack was scheduled when the enemy force are operating with a skeletal crew - e.g., when many or most of the crew onboard ship and/or Forts are asleep.

Although ground operations may still be at the mercy of the sun.



Which planet time? There are many planets and each spin, giving multiple time zones on each planet. It's always everytime, somewhere, you just need to pick one.

And if you travel at high speeds, the tau will throw off your clocks, so even if you align your clocks with - say Landing Time, If you patrol the system at .7g for several weeks, your clocks will need to be reset.

Like subs, ships never operate with skeleton crews, they have junior officers sitting in for more senior roles while the "primary" crews sleep - and then wake the primary officers when something happens, or like in SVW, raise the sidewalls and blow the BCs away before anyone can react.

The Junction forts had rotation alert schedules, with an equal portion of them being on alert, on standby, and "off duty" at any time. (With off duty meaning having a smaller, junior backup staff and the rest of the crews being at +15 or so.), so you are never going to catch them all off guard.

If I were the MAlign, I'd launch an attack on a system at night time. I'd want to catch the system as tired, sleepy and laid back as possible, with fewer as possible tugs operating.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by stewart   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:48 pm

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No, according to Franks book Guadalcanal, Halsey was passing through to join his CVTF. When Ghormley was relieved Halsey was quoted as saying "This is the hottest potato they've ever given me".

-------------

Another good book for the era is "Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway"

not quite a view from the IJN side, but shows some of the design philosophy and vulnerabilities of the IJN Carriers.

-- Stewart
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Bill Woods   » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:57 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:
Vince wrote:In the USN:
CV = Carrier of heaVier than air (planes), as opposed to lighter than air (dirigibles or blimps)

I thought CV was for Carrier Vessel.

The "C" is ambiguous, since it's also used for cruisers ... which some of the first carriers were. And "CA" was taken. The "V"....
A common question is "what does the 'V' stand for in CV or CVA or CVS or CVE?"

The following is taken from "United States Naval Aviation 1910-1995, Appendix 16: US Navy and Marine Corps Squadron Designations and Abbreviations":

On 17 July 1920, the Secretary of the Navy prescribed a standard nomenclature for types and classes of NAVAL VESSELs, including aircraft, in which lighter-than air craft were identified by the type "Z" and heavier-than air craft by the letter "V". The reference also speculates that: "The use of the "V" designation has been a question since the 1920s. However, no conclusive evidence has been found to identify why the letter "V" was chosen. It is generally believed the "V" was in reference to the French word volplane. As a verb, the word means to glide or soar. As a noun, it described an aeronautical device sustained in the air by lifting devices (wings), as opposed to the bag of gas that the airships (denoted by "Z") used. The same case may be regarding the use of "Z". It is generally believed the "Z" was used in deference to Count Ferdinand von Zeppelin. However, documentation has not been located to verify this assumption."
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/index_ships_list.php
, which includes a full(?) list of carrier designations, from ACV to CVV.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:12 am

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All through the movie Halsey spent all of his time on land. Even his famous "Attack!" order given to his carriers was from land, even though he knew they were overmatched. And they took a beating.

The Japanese had the upper hand and the initiative. The Americans didn't want to simply sit around and wait for them to attack, so they attacked themselves. They did the least expected.


Ignorance of the command area


[Halsey speaking] . . .

We have five days. Six at the most, before Yamamoto's big push.
My immediate handicap is ignorance of the area. I've never been on Guadalcanal.

In fact Yamamoto's staff thought it'd take Halsey at least a month to get up to speed.

****** *

Which makes me consider that ignorance of the area should have been a problem in the Honorverse as well. I'm sure most officers have never been to their area of command before being ordered there. I'm sure Honor had to bring herself up to speed about Basilisk even before Pavel Young abandoned her.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:26 am

cthia
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't understand the timidity of the Japanese command. On many occasions they failed to follow through. Even at Pearl, a follow up strike would have been devastating.

.


You are kind of glossing over many items.

For example, Pearl...

Pilots can only fly so many hours before they get tired - tired Pilots make mistakes. mistakes equals lost planes and pilots.

WWII era planes were insanely maintenance intensive by modern standards. Engines lasted a few 100 hours of use between complete overhauls. Heavy sortie tempo equals missed maintenance, equals lost planes and pilots.

The first strikes hit an unaware US force, as the strikes commenced, more planes got airborne, and more AA batteries were manned. several cruisers and BBs were beached intentionally, making them great AA platforms, with readied crews. Surviving US aircrews were now air borne flying CAP; while outnumbered, they could deal heavy damage to already damaged airplanes and tired crews, who also had to attack armed AA batteries.

It was confirmed that Halsey's carriers where not at Pearl. Their 4 fresh strike groups could strike at any moment, best to vacate the area and avoid direct confrontation with a fresh, near parity enemy force.

Ever hear of Buck fever? Where a hunter is so fixated on bagging his buck, he ignores all other factors, putting himself in danger? Over-reach is something taught to avoid in most militaries. Pushing too far, too fast has repeatedly led the best of leaders into traps.

Finally, look what finally did in the Japanese carrier force - they could not replace their trained pilots and the carriers became useless. They (The Japanese Leadership) knew this in 1941, but thought of it as the best way to build an effective fighting force- to keep your best warriors fighting out front, and have them keep honing their edge becoming better warriors.

They had not learned the US practice of Cadre yet, which the US has used to vastly expand it's military overnight several times. The rotation of those great, experienced soldiers and sailors from the front to the rear for training, allows for thousands of excellent replacements. Yes the US practice does slightly preclude the creation of amazingly awesome warriors, but it does create thousands of well trained replacements that can step into their shoes.

Time is responsible for the gloss. Apologies.

Halsey himself criticized the Japanese for failing to follow through. In fact, Halsey's Chief of Staff wanted to abandon the island after the carrier battle. If Yamamoto had followed through to Guadalcanal like his original plans called for, the Americans on the island would have been toast. Halsey took a big chance not evacuating. But he said the Japanese never follow through.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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