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What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:44 am

cthia
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cthia wrote:The movie got up close and personal with both Admirals as well. I was a bit gob smacked to learn that US admirals had played poker on a number of occasions with Yamamoto. So much so they knew he was an adept bluffer who consistently got away with it, even though he consistently overplayed his hand.

I guess the equivalent in the Honorverse would be Protector Benjamin studying on Manticore - who could just as easily have become Grayson enemies.

I recall the movie The Hunt For Red October where it was also mentioned that enemies had similarly met at dinners, or suppers.


I don't recall this ever being the case in the Honorverse - prior personal familiarization with the enemy. I think all that Manties and Peeps ever knew about each opponent was either ONI supplied, or what their operations told them about each other.

KNOW YOUR ENEMY will always be poignant to war and could become a matter of life and death.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by tlb   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:25 pm

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cthia wrote:I don't recall this ever being the case in the Honorverse - prior personal familiarization with the enemy. I think all that Manties and Peeps ever knew about each opponent was either ONI supplied, or what their operations told them about each other.

KNOW YOUR ENEMY will always be poignant to war and could become a matter of life and death.

I expect that was true prior to the war starting, but there have been several cases since then. Honor has met Theisman several times prior to Haven becoming allies with Manticore. Caslet was also encountered more than once. But the best example is Tourville, who won a fight and lost several with Honor.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:58 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't recall this ever being the case in the Honorverse - prior personal familiarization with the enemy. I think all that Manties and Peeps ever knew about each opponent was either ONI supplied, or what their operations told them about each other.

KNOW YOUR ENEMY will always be poignant to war and could become a matter of life and death.

I expect that was true prior to the war starting, but there have been several cases since then. Honor has met Theisman several times prior to Haven becoming allies with Manticore. Caslet was also encountered more than once. But the best example is Tourville, who won a fight and lost several with Honor.


Historically, many up and coming officers were sent to oversees prestigious schools, like Yale, Harvard, or Cambridge, for their advanced schooling - it had the advantage of advanced language training and cultural immersion. Not to mention most large countries have military attaches in their embassies to keep tabs on things.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:35 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't recall this ever being the case in the Honorverse - prior personal familiarization with the enemy. I think all that Manties and Peeps ever knew about each opponent was either ONI supplied, or what their operations told them about each other.

KNOW YOUR ENEMY will always be poignant to war and could become a matter of life and death.

I expect that was true prior to the war starting, but there have been several cases since then. Honor has met Theisman several times prior to Haven becoming allies with Manticore. Caslet was also encountered more than once. But the best example is Tourville, who won a fight and lost several with Honor.


Theemile wrote:Historically, many up and coming officers were sent to oversees prestigious schools, like Yale, Harvard, or Cambridge, for their advanced schooling - it had the advantage of advanced language training and cultural immersion. Not to mention most large countries have military attaches in their embassies to keep tabs on things.
That makes sense, everyone met Yamamoto in the US.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:45 pm

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I don't understand the timidity of the Japanese command. On many occasions they failed to follow through. Even at Pearl, a follow up strike would have been devastating.

****** *

Captain Sentaro Mikuma. Operations Officer. Each morning he conducts this briefing session. Today's report contains a couple of unpleasant items. In the past 24, the Japanese have lost 11 bombers and eight fighters and encountered increased resistance in the ground at Guadalcanal.

Vice Admiral Boshiroshima asks Captain Mikuma to account for this increased resistance. Mikuma attributes it to Admiral Halsey's visit there four days ago.

Japanese intelligence knows that in two weeks American pilots on Guadalcanal will receive new Corsair and P-38 fighters. Rear Admiral Kobe has just predicted that in two weeks there will be nothing for them to land on. Everyone finds this amusing. Well almost everyone. Yamamoto will tolerate no more postponements. He outlines a blueprint to be followed at all costs. On October 23rd, he will take Henderson Field. On October 23rd, he will land troops under heavy air cover. On October 24th, his planes will commence operations from Henderson Field. On October 25th, his battleships, cruisers and carriers will engage the US naval forces and maintain contact until those forces are obliterated. The occupation and surrender of Guadalcanal will follow. Until that is accomplished, he cares to hear no more laughter.

The strike was successful and the American forces were laid bare. All the Japanese had to do was to keep going on to Guadalcanal. The Americans had nothing to fight with. The Japanese withdrew.

The Manties did the same thing just as soon as they could first smell Nouveau Paris, they broke off operations.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:17 pm

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cthia wrote:I don't understand the timidity of the Japanese command. On many occasions they failed to follow through. Even at Pearl, a follow up strike would have been devastating.

.


You are kind of glossing over many items.

For example, Pearl...

Pilots can only fly so many hours before they get tired - tired Pilots make mistakes. mistakes equals lost planes and pilots.

WWII era planes were insanely maintenance intensive by modern standards. Engines lasted a few 100 hours of use between complete overhauls. Heavy sortie tempo equals missed maintenance, equals lost planes and pilots.

The first strikes hit an unaware US force, as the strikes commenced, more planes got airborne, and more AA batteries were manned. several cruisers and BBs were beached intentionally, making them great AA platforms, with readied crews. Surviving US aircrews were now air borne flying CAP; while outnumbered, they could deal heavy damage to already damaged airplanes and tired crews, who also had to attack armed AA batteries.

It was confirmed that Halsey's carriers where not at Pearl. Their 4 fresh strike groups could strike at any moment, best to vacate the area and avoid direct confrontation with a fresh, near parity enemy force.

Ever hear of Buck fever? Where a hunter is so fixated on bagging his buck, he ignores all other factors, putting himself in danger? Over-reach is something taught to avoid in most militaries. Pushing too far, too fast has repeatedly led the best of leaders into traps.

Finally, look what finally did in the Japanese carrier force - they could not replace their trained pilots and the carriers became useless. They (The Japanese Leadership) knew this in 1941, but thought of it as the best way to build an effective fighting force- to keep your best warriors fighting out front, and have them keep honing their edge becoming better warriors.

They had not learned the US practice of Cadre yet, which the US has used to vastly expand it's military overnight several times. The rotation of those great, experienced soldiers and sailors from the front to the rear for training, allows for thousands of excellent replacements. Yes the US practice does slightly preclude the creation of amazingly awesome warriors, but it does create thousands of well trained replacements that can step into their shoes.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by saber964   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:48 pm

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Bill Woods wrote:
cthia"[quote="Bill Woods wrote:As I said, I'm skeptical about that bit of the film; it seems like a long detour on a whim. I don't recall where Halsey is coming from -- Samoa or Fiji?
cthia wrote:I don't recall, or if there were, any waypoints, but this was Halsey's maiden voyage from Pearl Harbor to assume command of the forces at Guadalcanal. Movie script even included narrative of intel that several high level Admirals, Halsey included, were missing for the "last 2-3 days" from Pearl. As a matter of fact, Halsey's flying boat was spotted by a Japanese sub en route to Guadalcanal across the waters, which is responsible for the plan to assassinate him.
Halsey was already in the South Pacific, on some sort of inspection tour, when Nimitz pulled the plug on Ghormley. Nimitz may have been planning ahead....

Again, I'm skeptical that that sequence is anything more than fiction. I don't think Japanese intel was capable of tracking American admirals that closely.[/quote]



No, according to Franks book Guadalcanal, Halsey was passing through to join his CVTF. When Ghormley was relieved Halsey was quoted as saying "This is the hottest potato they've ever given me".
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:27 am

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saber964 wrote:No, according to Franks book Guadalcanal, Halsey was passing through to join his CVTF. When Ghormley was relieved Halsey was quoted as saying "This is the hottest potato they've ever given me".


Saber, what is CVTF? I searched the net but caught no joy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Vince   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:01 am

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cthia wrote:
saber964 wrote:No, according to Franks book Guadalcanal, Halsey was passing through to join his CVTF. When Ghormley was relieved Halsey was quoted as saying "This is the hottest potato they've ever given me".


Saber, what is CVTF? I searched the net but caught no joy.

Carrier task force.

In the USN:
CV = Carrier of heaVier than air (planes), as opposed to lighter than air (dirigibles or blimps)
TF = Task Force
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:10 am

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Vince wrote:Carrier task force.

In the USN:
CV = Carrier of heaVier than air (planes), as opposed to lighter than air (dirigibles or blimps)
TF = Task Force

I thought CV was for Carrier Vessel.
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