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When did Honor become the MVP?

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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:03 pm

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cthia wrote:Another reason I considered that Honor may have influenced Alice's tactics is because there was a tendency to exchange mail and Alice and Honor were rather fond of each other. I also seem to recall one of Honor's very dearest inner circle being tapped for that command. Tremaine. Which offers up another avenue for Honor's teachings to have effected LAC strategy.

Not just mail. Honor was in command of the Crusher while Truman was working up Minotaur, and on at least one occasion Tremaine discusses how similar one of the training sims was to something Harrington would have thrown at them, and Harkness responds with a comment about Truman having made a trip to Sanganami Island since the previous sim.

I believe it was explicitly stated that Harrington was gaming out carrier tactics with Truman on the Academy simulators but it may have only been implied.
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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:36 pm

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I mentioned in a previous post that it should be considered when the awards committee sat down. This is important because MVPs are usually handed out after the fact, followed by more money/harder assignments (the idea being what you can do better tomorrow than what you did yesterday). This isn't always the case. There were, for example, many fine regiment/brigade/division/corps commanders during the US Civil War who were lost with a brigade/division/corps/army. But for the sake of Honor...

When did the RMN (and Grayson) realize what a gem they had?

The Graysons pretty much figured it out in Flag in Exile. They gave her a full battle squadron (and a promotion of four grades plus seniority). But this was less about Honor as an individual and realizing the qualitative superiority she represented over their native-produced officers. Essentially High Admiral Matthews was going 'you're our best shot, here are the best senior commanders we have, do your best and I'm throwing in a squadron of super dreadnoughts as an inducement.' Considering where the GSN (and said officers) has gone since, it payed off handsomely; but I question whether the Grayson Space Navy MVP was really 'earned' before it was handed out. (Previous actions in Grayson don't count towards award as she was serving with the RMN)

The RMN is a bit trickier. There were a lot of impact plays she made early, but she was essentially 'just another commander/Captain SG.' Better than average, certainly (average people don't skip ranks), but not the...iconic figure. (Ignore the newsies back home, they don't count 'Salamander' or no). I think there are two potential points where the award committee votes (both happen off-screen), and MVPs are awarded (both on-screen)

1) The conversation between Tom Caparelli and Lucien Cortez when they realize Honor isn't dead, is coming to Manticore for medical treatment, and need to figure out what to do with her. The Award Committee hands out: Admiral's Flag, tactical courses at Saganami Island, Command of ATC. (note: this constitutes 'light duty' in the RMN :shock: and helps place things in perspective).

2) All serving officers vote Honor to command HMS Unconquered. This is, admittedly, pretty blatant; there's a list of nominees, committee voting, award presentation by an extremely important person...
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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:28 pm

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Kael Posavatz wrote:

...Snip....
2) All serving officers vote Honor to command HMS Unconquered. This is, admittedly, pretty blatant; there's a list of nominees, committee voting, award presentation by an extremely important person...


I wonder if the vote was "every vote except one" for Honor, and one (Honor's) for one of the other candidates.

You can't get a presenter more important in the SKM than the one who presented Honor with her white beret for Unconquered.

Although the presentation was rather casual.
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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by Relax   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:14 am

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cthia wrote:Honor becomes MVP
WHEN


Honor is never MVP
Book one
Chapter one
Paragraph one
Line one

Is about who?

Nimitz
Nimitz is MVP from first to last

:D :) ;) :( :o :shock: :? 8-) :lol:
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:34 am

cthia
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Kael Posavatz wrote:I mentioned in a previous post that it should be considered when the awards committee sat down. This is important because MVPs are usually handed out after the fact, followed by more money/harder assignments (the idea being what you can do better tomorrow than what you did yesterday). This isn't always the case. There were, for example, many fine regiment/brigade/division/corps commanders during the US Civil War who were lost with a brigade/division/corps/army. But for the sake of Honor...

When did the RMN (and Grayson) realize what a gem they had?

The Graysons pretty much figured it out in Flag in Exile. They gave her a full battle squadron (and a promotion of four grades plus seniority). But this was less about Honor as an individual and realizing the qualitative superiority she represented over their native-produced officers. Essentially High Admiral Matthews was going 'you're our best shot, here are the best senior commanders we have, do your best and I'm throwing in a squadron of super dreadnoughts as an inducement.' Considering where the GSN (and said officers) has gone since, it payed off handsomely; but I question whether the Grayson Space Navy MVP was really 'earned' before it was handed out. (Previous actions in Grayson don't count towards award as she was serving with the RMN)

The RMN is a bit trickier. There were a lot of impact plays she made early, but she was essentially 'just another commander/Captain SG.' Better than average, certainly (average people don't skip ranks), but not the...iconic figure. (Ignore the newsies back home, they don't count 'Salamander' or no). I think there are two potential points where the award committee votes (both happen off-screen), and MVPs are awarded (both on-screen)

1) The conversation between Tom Caparelli and Lucien Cortez when they realize Honor isn't dead, is coming to Manticore for medical treatment, and need to figure out what to do with her. The Award Committee hands out: Admiral's Flag, tactical courses at Saganami Island, Command of ATC. (note: this constitutes 'light duty' in the RMN :shock: and helps place things in perspective).

2) All serving officers vote Honor to command HMS Unconquered. This is, admittedly, pretty blatant; there's a list of nominees, committee voting, award presentation by an extremely important person...


Very interesting post Kael.

Grayson certainly knew Honor's worth way before the Star Kingdom. I even think Protector Benjamin saw her value long before anyone else. I can imagine him discussing "that woman" with his wives at the dinner table after the First Battle of Yeltsin - where I wouldn't be surprised that the first true recognition of Honor's value in the entire galaxy is responsible for the whole conception of the Mayhew Plan. Probably something like, "I can build a dream on that woman's back!"

What a dinner discussion that must have been. Benjamin and his wives probably couldn't believe that providence had fallen in their lap. I would love to have been a fly on the wall during the first conversations about Honor at that dinner table.

The Opposing Keys probably quickly realized her value too, for the other side. "This harlot is going to be the death of us." Well, at least one of them got it right.

On another note, the Havenites saw her value way before the Manties as well. They couldn't believe their good fortune when Honor was benched. "What the hell is wrong with them!" For the Havenites, as far as Honor's benching was concerned gave a whole new meaning to "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth." I find it odd, that every other navy saw her worth long before the RMN.

Either the old adage "On the outside looking in gives a fresh set of eyes," applies, or the fact that it was in the Havenites best interest to know their enemy. Honor made it her pet peeve to kick Peep ass.

I'd personally find it interesting the moment the Andermani began to take note of her.

They even heard about Honor in Hell where news only traveled by way of incoming prisoners. Can you imagine that Honor's value was so great that she was the stuff of legends on a planet of despair. ISTR that people on the planet couldn't believe she was real. They didn't know anything about her exploits. Telling war stories about Honor on Cerberus probably sounded like old fish tales. Until Honor showed them that the fairy tales were all real. And then some.

"OMG! Did you see what just happened?" The prisoners on planet who already knew about Honor and had been telling the stories must have been beaming.

"Told you so."

The ESN certainly knew her status as MVP. Honor must have appeared larger than life to them, and nothing has changed.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:31 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:Not just mail. Honor was in command of the Crusher while Truman was working up Minotaur, and on at least one occasion Tremaine discusses how similar one of the training sims was to something Harrington would have thrown at them, and Harkness responds with a comment about Truman having made a trip to Sanganami Island since the previous sim.

I believe it was explicitly stated that Harrington was gaming out carrier tactics with Truman on the Academy simulators but it may have only been implied.


Minotaur work up is Ecohes of honor while Honor is stuck on Hades

Command of the crusher was in Ashes of Victory, after her return from Hades.

The comment about having just got back from Mantcore where she must have spent time at Sag isle, is from one of the few LAC squadron commanders to survive Second Hancock to Scotty. Harkness doesn't arrive until 5 minutes later.
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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:51 am

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cthia wrote:
Another reason I considered that Honor may have influenced Alice's tactics is because there was a tendency to exchange mail and Alice and Honor were rather fond of each other. I also seem to recall one of Honor's very dearest inner circle being tapped for that command. Tremaine. Which offers up another avenue for Honor's teachings to have effected LAC strategy.


Scotty didn't get Command of a LAC wing until after the return from Hades, at least 6 months more like a year after Truman and Harmon started working out how to actually use the lovely LACs the Tax Payers had bought for them.

again I point you to the time line. even assuming Alice had been informed she was to take command of the RMN's first proper carrier while Honor was still in the SKM and likely to be there for a while yet, it was early in ecohes of Honor that we even see Mintour and at that time she didn't have her LACs. most of which were delivered via freighter to Hancock after Minotaur got there.

there is a minimum of 12 months (more like 18 months) between Honor leaving for Grayson and work up trails for both carrier and wing. A year in which honor was insanely busy with taking command of her squadron, early! which meant even more effort needed. Then not long after she left on convoy escort she is captured and is VERY incommunicado.

so again I say: Did honor help with the basic ideas? very possibly (maybe even likely) but Alice and Jackie had to take theory and make it work without Honor's input, her being presumed dead etc.

now after Honor and Co returned it is very likely that Honor helped Alice refine the basic ideas, in light of the actual combat data they now had.

but my point is that Honor may have helped Alice but credit for making the LAC swarm concept really work by doing the hardest part, taking the idea from theory to an actual workable weapon, goes to Alice Truman and Jackie Harmon.
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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:26 am

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cthia wrote:Honor becomes MVP
WHEN


MVP is an anagram of PMV, which Honor refused once and reluctantly accepted the second time. The Star of Grayson awarded twice is the Grayson equivalent.

Like many high-profile sports stars, Honor is a multiple MVP award winner.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:55 pm

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cthia wrote:" I find it odd, that every other navy saw her worth long before the RMN.


I'm not sure I'd go that far. No, in fact I know I wouldn't.

The Peeps recognized her as the outstanding manty officer of her generation, and nothing I've seen suggests the RMN didn't consider her the same after Cassimer. If your 'officer generation' are all busy being shiphandlers it would take something extremely unusual to have one commanding fleets (Theisman, and the CPS habit of shooting admirals pour encourager les autres is a good example). First Basilisk gets her promoted to Captain SG and her following assignments are: independent patrol-->Independent Squadron/diplomatic mission-->BC command, Flag Captain. All of these assignments are increasingly difficult with corresponding prestige and responsibility, two come with brand new ships, and the last one has her as Sarnow's tactical deputy. For that matter, HMS Nike is THE battlecruiser command, the one post the RMN is going to put the best available ship-handler in.

Silesia was a sop move to her critics. White Haven says as much in HAE when he briefs her. In the same passage he recognizes her as one of the RMN's finest officers, that she should be at least a commodore, that if Caparelli had a free hand he'd skip her to flag rank and give her a squadron of the wall or at least battlecruisers, and that once on duty nothing could stop the admiralty from giving her the acting authority she needs for whatever assignment they give her even if political opposition prevents her promotion from being confirmed.

So as early as 1908PD the RMN new her 'value' but were prevented from making best use of her. I actually considered that scene in HAE pretty hard for the MVP award. The issue I had is that while her Navy might have recognized her ability, her actual achievements in enabling the RMN to 'win' were...relatively minor, really.

From 1908 back to, oh, immediately after Cassimer they were aware of her ability and giving her assignments to match. Fearless I wasn't a hate-move by Hemphill, it was a case of giving her test vessel to the best officer available (who didn't have the connections to get out of it), and the assignment to Basilisk was Janacek being petty. And it's probably worth noting that Theisman is a flag captain in SVW, the same as Honor.
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Re: When did Honor become the MVP?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:02 pm

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Kael Posavatz wrote:From 1908 back to, oh, immediately after Cassimer they were aware of her ability and giving her assignments to match. Fearless I wasn't a hate-move by Hemphill, it was a case of giving her test vessel to the best officer available (who didn't have the connections to get out of it), and the assignment to Basilisk was Janacek being petty. And it's probably worth noting that Theisman is a flag captain in SVW, the same as Honor.


I'd bump that to before Cassimere, to the RMN actually handing her the Hawkwing. The RMN only gave a few Lt. Commanders a Destroyer before running them through the Crusher, and she was one of them. So she was already marked as someone with the appropriate command ability - WITHOUT the required schooling (even through she would get it later.) She might not have been MVP then, but she certainly stood out ahead of the pack.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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