Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests

Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:14 pm

quite possibly a cat
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:51 am

So I asked myself: How is the Malign (political opposition and other governments too) gonna spin the whole Beowulf incident? How are they going to convince the average, well-informed (wo)man in Manticore, the Solarian League to accept their narrative? What narrative would they even want? Remember, no one knows about Darius.

Well, I have an answer: "It was the Mesan terrorists, with the nukes, in the Ballroom." More precisely the claim would be it was definitely a Mesan terrorists, possibly fringe radicals of the public Mesan Alignment, and the Ballroom played a role in pulling off the attack. At a minimum, Beowulf's tolerance and support of terrorist activities made them an easy target, but its possible that the Ballroom was actually involved.

Why is this convincing?
That really has two questions: why Mesan Terrorists and why the Ballroom

Why Mesan Terrorists? Mesan Terrorists are the only ones who regularly toss around nukes, so its their MO. Plus Mesan terrorists are the only ones who have a good motive for hitting the Megadeath route. They think the GA did it to them. Sure, Beowulf isn't the GA, but they're GA adjacent. As a bonus, Manticore is blaming Mesan terrorists too, except with a bonus racist* conspiracy theory thrown in.

Why the Ballroom? The logical reason to say the Ballroom played a role is because the Mesan terrorists only hit Beowulf, not Manticore or the GA proper. Beowulf letting the terrorists in is the reason the terrorists had the assets to pull the attack off in Beowulf, but not Manticore. The illogical reason is people like to feel safe. This tells everyone "As long as your nation doesn't support terrorists, you're safe."

Why is this useful? What's the point of spinning things this way? Well a bunch of different groups will have different reasons.

Why would the Malign use this spin? It clears them of blame! Plus it makes Beowulf look bad. Plus it doesn't hint at any sort of conspiracy where Mesan nukes itself. That's all they want.

Why would political opposition want this? If you're the opposition in Beowulf or Manticore you know what would be really nice right now? An investigation into terrorism of all kinds. Since the government is in bed with terrorists!

Harrington? Long** history of working with and supporting terrorists. Cathy, the Queens friend? Active terrorist supporter. Queen Berry? Seems awfully suspicious. If this becomes the dominant narrative you get to paint your political opponents as the ones who, at a minimum, let millions get murdered.

Why do other governments like this spin? It does two things: First, you get to accuse the GA of being in bed with terrorists. Second, you now have an excuse to place the blame squarely on the GA. Even if the GA is cleared for their actions at Mesa, it was still their job to keep law and order. If terrorists from Mesa nuked Beowulf, that's the GA's fault.

Bonus horribleness: Spreading this theory, assuming it gets any traction in the GA, will likely lead to a backlash against people from Mesa. Even genetic slaves. When this happens be sure to blame that on the racist* conspiracy theory the GA is peddling.

*Sure, it might not actually be a racist conspiracy theory, but it sure looks like one! Claiming a minority group is part of some sort of horrible conspiracy is a pretty classic racist tactic.
**Okay, it was just the one time. And really all she did was not arrest the terrorists. But those are just details.
Top
Re: Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:33 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11337
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

So we need a Honor hater in the IBI to start investigating Honor’s aide as a terrorist supporter, then leak the fake results to the press so they can use that to launch more investigations and more leaks to prove collusion with the Ballroom.
Top
Re: Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by Annachie   » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:01 am

Annachie
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:36 pm

Why would the Ballroom attack Beowulf?

More importantly, why would anybody even consider the posibility of the Ballroom being involved?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
Top
Re: Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by ncwolf   » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:42 pm

ncwolf
Commander

Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:49 pm

Annachie wrote:Why would the Ballroom attack Beowulf?

More importantly, why would anybody even consider the posibility of the Ballroom being involved?


{Cockamamie theories:
Why? They're crazy, blood-thirsty terrorists! That's why!

They had a falling out with their "masters" on Beowolf and announced their independence the most dramatic, murderous way possible.

{Admittedly most ridiculous} It was an accident; the bombs (probably manufactured on Manticore or Beowolf) were supposed to be on Mesa, but because the Manties had stopped the free-flow of commerce the bombs were not delivered before their timers ran down and the Ballroom was too incompetent to keep track of nukes.
}
Top
Re: Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:34 am

quite possibly a cat
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:51 am

Annachie wrote:Why would the Ballroom attack Beowulf?
Beowulf is friends with the GA. It looks like the GA just massacred a bunch of genetic slaves (and other Mesans) out of sheer spite for Mesans. Maybe everyone in the Ballroom knows better, but maybe not.
More importantly, why would anybody even consider the posibility of the Ballroom being involved?
To start with they're widely regarded as a terrorist group. However the much bigger reason is it looks like the GA just massacred a bunch of genetic slaves (and other Mesans) out of sheer spite for Mesans. Terrorist groups aren't known for being particularly discriminating in their targets; indeed terrorists frequently target people and groups that aren't directly involved.

Plus the Ballroom isn't actually a well organized top down group. Anyone can claim to be Ballroom!

Finally, the "spin" doesn't require that the Ballroom actually have been involved directly. Simply, tolerating terrorism creates the environment that terrorists thrive in. By tolerating the Ballroom Beowulf made themselves vulnerable to terrorist groups of all stripes.
Top
Re: Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by Joat42   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:55 am

Joat42
Admiral

Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:01 am
Location: Sweden

quite possibly a cat wrote:
Annachie wrote:Why would the Ballroom attack Beowulf?
Beowulf is friends with the GA. It looks like the GA just massacred a bunch of genetic slaves (and other Mesans) out of sheer spite for Mesans. Maybe everyone in the Ballroom knows better, but maybe not.
More importantly, why would anybody even consider the posibility of the Ballroom being involved?
To start with they're widely regarded as a terrorist group. However the much bigger reason is it looks like the GA just massacred a bunch of genetic slaves (and other Mesans) out of sheer spite for Mesans. Terrorist groups aren't known for being particularly discriminating in their targets; indeed terrorists frequently target people and groups that aren't directly involved.

Plus the Ballroom isn't actually a well organized top down group. Anyone can claim to be Ballroom!

Finally, the "spin" doesn't require that the Ballroom actually have been involved directly. Simply, tolerating terrorism creates the environment that terrorists thrive in. By tolerating the Ballroom Beowulf made themselves vulnerable to terrorist groups of all stripes.

Your entire idea is 'lets bomb something because reasons that doesn't make sense!'

And at this point in Honorverse, the Ballroom has more or less disbanded and migrated to Torch. And why would the Ballroom attack one their "informal" allies so they can give one of their "informal" supporters a bloody nose?

No matter how you spin it, the idea that the Ballroom would bomb Beowulf to hurt the GA is so far out that even a vegetable growing on Darius would die of apoplexy hearing it.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
Top
Re: Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by kzt   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:13 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11337
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Joat42 wrote:[
And at this point in Honorverse, the Ballroom has more or less disbanded and migrated to Torch. And why would the Ballroom attack one their "informal" allies so they can give one of their "informal" supporters a bloody nose?

The ballroom is like any other terrorists org. You join it like you join ISIS or al qeada, by your actions. There is no central control or anyone who can say “bad terrorist, no dinner for you”. And going after a nominal ally for being insufficiently pure is typical terrorist crap. Who have ISIS mostly killed, impure or unsupportive muslins or westerners? It’s like 100:1 Muslims.
Top
Re: Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by Joat42   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:56 am

Joat42
Admiral

Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:01 am
Location: Sweden

kzt wrote:
Joat42 wrote:And at this point in Honorverse, the Ballroom has more or less disbanded and migrated to Torch. And why would the Ballroom attack one their "informal" allies so they can give one of their "informal" supporters a bloody nose?

The ballroom is like any other terrorists org. You join it like you join ISIS or al qeada, by your actions. There is no central control or anyone who can say “bad terrorist, no dinner for you”. And going after a nominal ally for being insufficiently pure is typical terrorist crap. Who have ISIS mostly killed, impure or unsupportive muslins or westerners? It’s like 100:1 Muslims.

That description of Audubon Ballroom doesn't really fit any of textev I can remember. If I'm wrong can you please point me to textev that says the Ballroom kills more slaves than slavers? Or that they go after allies?

The Ballroom wasn't shy of using methods which made them de facto a terrorist organisation, but their targets where always involved in slavery. Also, the MA used the Ballroom as a scapegoat on more than one occasion which didn't help their reputation.

And my assertion still stands, the Ballroom was disbanded by their leader Jeremy X in Crown of Slaves and he made it very clear what would happen to members who strayed. The majority of the members ended up in Torch's navy or intelligence organisations.

And my opinion is that at the time of the incident at Beowulf there isn't a functioning organisation called Audubon Ballroom. Manticore, Haven, Beowulf, Maya, Erewhon and more knows this.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
Top
Re: Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by saber964   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:10 am

saber964
Admiral

Posts: 2423
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 pm
Location: Spokane WA USA

Joat42 wrote:
kzt wrote:quote="Joat42"]
And at this point in Honorverse, the Ballroom has more or less disbanded and migrated to Torch. And why would the Ballroom attack one their "informal" allies so they can give one of their "informal" supporters a bloody nose?

The ballroom is like any other terrorists org. You join it like you join ISIS or al qeada, by your actions. There is no central control or anyone who can say “bad terrorist, no dinner for you”. And going after a nominal ally for being insufficiently pure is typical terrorist crap. Who have ISIS mostly killed, impure or unsupportive muslins or westerners? It’s like 100:1 Muslims.

That description of Audubon Ballroom doesn't really fit any of textev I can remember. If I'm wrong can you please point me to textev that says the Ballroom kills more slaves than slavers? Or that they go after allies?

The Ballroom wasn't shy of using methods which made them de facto a terrorist organisation, but their targets where always involved in slavery. Also, the MA used the Ballroom as a scapegoat on more than one occasion which didn't help their reputation.

And my assertion still stands, the Ballroom was disbanded by their leader Jeremy X in Crown of Slaves and he made it very clear what would happen to members who strayed. The majority of the members ended up in Torch's navy or intelligence organisations.

And my opinion is that at the time of the incident at Beowulf there isn't a functioning organisation called Audubon Ballroom. Manticore, Haven, Beowulf, Maya, Erewhon and more knows this.[/quote]


The Ballroom likely did not disband entirely but morphed into something like the British SOE or U.S. OSS. Which were involved in sabotage assassination and intelligence gathering.
Top
Re: Clue [UH Spoilers] Edition
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:29 pm

Dauntless
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1070
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:54 pm
Location: United Kingdom

blaming the ballroom is for solly audience

the GA would know that it is very unlikely that ballroom would attack beowulf.
Top

Return to Honorverse