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Where Next for the GSN?

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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:47 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Think those were just the short stories,

HoS lists the major difference between the Paul of Tarsis class and the Roland class is the split berthing required for mixed crews in Grayson service. It's safe to assume anything built after 1920-21 is going to be set up for mixed crews, with the exception of LACs and maybe dispatch boats.
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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by drothgery   » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:03 pm

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cthia wrote:Something occurred to me. How can Grayson possibly entertain a build down when there have been no less than four battles in Yeltsin? Isn't that a record in the Honorverse?

Because Masada is occupied by Manticore, and the doctrine that would make Grayson valuable as a staging point to attack Manticore is dead?

But I've said before that although I think there's no logical reason for Grayson to maintain more than a BC level navy, I really doubt they'll build down that much.
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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by jtg452   » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:25 am

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drothgery wrote:
cthia wrote:Something occurred to me. How can Grayson possibly entertain a build down when there have been no less than four battles in Yeltsin? Isn't that a record in the Honorverse?

Because Masada is occupied by Manticore, and the doctrine that would make Grayson valuable as a staging point to attack Manticore is dead?

But I've said before that although I think there's no logical reason for Grayson to maintain more than a BC level navy, I really doubt they'll build down that much.

Yet, they know that Masada wasn't behind the Blackbird Strike any more than the Sollies were behind it.

There's somebody out in the dark that means them ill and they know it.

I don't see Benjamin letting them beat their grazers into plowshares, sell off demilled Katanas as in-system runabouts and think of war no more.
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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by Relax   » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:20 pm

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GSN:
SD: All retired
SDP: Some mothballed
CLAC: Most mothballed
BCP: Front line service
BC: Mothballed
CA: Front Line service
Interdiction Ships: Retained and more built
DD: Replaced

Home system: Forts on rotating basis
DD+LAC as well.

PS: Don't save much in manpower as most GSN models have few manpower requirements.

PPS: Paring down on the logistics pipeline on the other hand could save a LOT of manpower and $$$. So, all old models with single drive missiles and heavy manpower = GONE. Sell them. Probably make more selling them than they paid for them due to the interstellar situation. I could even see them eliminating the BCP and retaining the SDP while updating the CA, like adding power outlets to its hull so it can carry 40 pods indefinitely.....
_________
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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:36 am

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Relax wrote:GSN:
SD: All retired
SDP: Some mothballed
CLAC: Most mothballed
BCP: Front line service
BC: Mothballed
CA: Front Line service
Interdiction Ships: Retained and more built
DD: Replaced

Home system: Forts on rotating basis
DD+LAC as well.

PS: Don't save much in manpower as most GSN models have few manpower requirements.

RFC pointed out long ago that a good sized navy was not that difficult for a whole planet to support.

The Grayson leaders know that much of the support from an alliance COULD BE transitory. High Ridge showed them that. Second, they have the issue of Masada. Third, they are pretty rigid and Benjamin is the suspicious sort.

Add to that the fact that his sons will be growing up in that household and their oldest sister is in the navy, there will be a distinct unwillingness to move towards disarmament.


PPS: Paring down on the logistics pipeline on the other hand could save a LOT of manpower and $$$. So, all old models with single drive missiles and heavy manpower = GONE. Sell them. Probably make more selling them than they paid for them due to the interstellar situation. I could even see them eliminating the BCP and retaining the SDP while updating the CA, like adding power outlets to its hull so it can carry 40 pods indefinitely.....
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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by Relax   » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:44 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
Relax wrote:GSN:
SD: All retired
SDP: Some mothballed
CLAC: Most mothballed
BCP: Front line service
BC: Mothballed
CA: Front Line service
Interdiction Ships: Retained and more built
DD: Replaced

Home system: Forts on rotating basis
DD+LAC as well.

PS: Don't save much in manpower as most GSN models have few manpower requirements.

RFC pointed out long ago that a good sized navy was not that difficult for a whole planet to support.

The Grayson leaders know that much of the support from an alliance COULD BE transitory. High Ridge showed them that. Second, they have the issue of Masada. Third, they are pretty rigid and Benjamin is the suspicious sort.

Add to that the fact that his sons will be growing up in that household and their oldest sister is in the navy, there will be a distinct unwillingness to move towards disarmament.


PPS: Paring down on the logistics pipeline on the other hand could save a LOT of manpower and $$$. So, all old models with single drive missiles and heavy manpower = GONE. Sell them. Probably make more selling them than they paid for them due to the interstellar situation. I could even see them eliminating the BCP and retaining the SDP while updating the CA, like adding power outlets to its hull so it can carry 40 pods indefinitely.....

*** Please place your reply out of the quote, not inside, it makes reading near impossible***

1) I thought it was rather obvious from my post that manpower for GSN is not that big of a deal due to their ships already having the manpower reductions.

2) I stated Logistics would be a larger problem. No, I did not go into detailed reasons why. (Not counting their entire logistics train got BLOWN UP)

2a) Grayson is still limited tech wise compared to rest of galaxy which means they have catching up to do. This requires decades of LEARNING/DOING. Most of those who learned, just died, restarting the process.

2b) With a 3:1 ratio of women/men the dependents ratio is exceedingly high. While women can work in construction/trades/engineering, it is exceedingly rare and they do not choose to do so. In general ~~ terms: men are physical builders, women are builders of relationships. Learning trades, engineering, etc requires DECADES of applied work and the will to continue to do so. You can semi-force someone to do something they do not want to do for a few years, but decades? No.

2c) Most of Graysons do not have prolong which means their health compared to rest of galaxy sucks making for even MORE dependents.

2d) Their planet also tries to kill them requiring far more labor to produce food etc compared to anywhere else in the galaxy. Example would be difference between India and Russia for food production. One is blessed, the other is abysmal.

2e) They are just starting to build Domes for farming... Let you do the simple math of area required to feed 4 BILLION people and the immense insane amount of manhours required to build the structure, let alone decontaminate the soil and all of the filtration systems required. This alone will tie up the entire Grayson industrial plant for the next 2 decades.

3) Their entire war plant got destroyed
3a) Logistics is a MASSIVE problem as they have none
3b) Must be rebuilt from scratch. This requires DECADES in lost personnel and plant rebuilding.

SO: Grayson must become introspective for a while and fix many problems. One of which is the fact they have been on a war footing for a VERY LONG time. The populace is tired. The only war on earth that I could compare it to would be the 30 years war. If you want to use the USA analogue, then the WWII/Korea period followed by Vietnam... Vietnam ended in a military victory but a defeat due to the populace not supporting the effort and who just wanted it to STOP with 3 million men, 1:30 in Uniform around the world for the last 30 years. Essentially every man growing up for 30 years was in the military or supporting it and only luck kept you out of the draft.

Grayson is Tired but on an upward trajectory.
Grayson has no true external threat.
Grayson will support its allies and keep its hand in the politics this way. So, I see many spec ops and commerce protection duties. Power projection?(SDP/CLAC) Will be pruned to the bone but kept in reserve.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by tlb   » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 am

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Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

ldwechsler wrote:
Relax wrote:GSN:
SD: All retired
SDP: Some mothballed
CLAC: Most mothballed
BCP: Front line service
BC: Mothballed
CA: Front Line service
Interdiction Ships: Retained and more built
DD: Replaced

Home system: Forts on rotating basis
DD+LAC as well.

PS: Don't save much in manpower as most GSN models have few manpower requirements.

RFC pointed out long ago that a good sized navy was not that difficult for a whole planet to support.

The Grayson leaders know that much of the support from an alliance COULD BE transitory. High Ridge showed them that. Second, they have the issue of Masada. Third, they are pretty rigid and Benjamin is the suspicious sort.

Add to that the fact that his sons will be growing up in that household and their oldest sister is in the navy, there will be a distinct unwillingness to move towards disarmament.
Relax wrote:PPS: Paring down on the logistics pipeline on the other hand could save a LOT of manpower and $$$. So, all old models with single drive missiles and heavy manpower = GONE. Sell them. Probably make more selling them than they paid for them due to the interstellar situation. I could even see them eliminating the BCP and retaining the SDP while updating the CA, like adding power outlets to its hull so it can carry 40 pods indefinitely.....

Relax wrote:*** Please place your reply out of the quote, not inside, it makes reading near impossible***

1) I thought it was rather obvious from my post that manpower for GSN is not that big of a deal due to their ships already having the manpower reductions.

2) I stated Logistics would be a larger problem. No, I did not go into detailed reasons why. (Not counting their entire logistics train got BLOWN UP)

2a) Grayson is still limited tech wise compared to rest of galaxy which means they have catching up to do. This requires decades of LEARNING/DOING. Most of those who learned, just died, restarting the process.

2b) With a 3:1 ratio of women/men the dependents ratio is exceedingly high. While women can work in construction/trades/engineering, it is exceedingly rare and they do not choose to do so. In general ~~ terms: men are physical builders, women are builders of relationships. Learning trades, engineering, etc requires DECADES of applied work and the will to continue to do so. You can semi-force someone to do something they do not want to do for a few years, but decades? No.

2c) Most of Graysons do not have prolong which means their health compared to rest of galaxy sucks making for even MORE dependents.

2d) Their planet also tries to kill them requiring far more labor to produce food etc compared to anywhere else in the galaxy. Example would be difference between India and Russia for food production. One is blessed, the other is abysmal.

2e) They are just starting to build Domes for farming... Let you do the simple math of area required to feed 4 BILLION people and the immense insane amount of manhours required to build the structure, let alone decontaminate the soil and all of the filtration systems required. This alone will tie up the entire Grayson industrial plant for the next 2 decades.

3) Their entire war plant got destroyed
3a) Logistics is a MASSIVE problem as they have none
3b) Must be rebuilt from scratch. This requires DECADES in lost personnel and plant rebuilding.

SO: Grayson must become introspective for a while and fix many problems. One of which is the fact they have been on a war footing for a VERY LONG time. The populace is tired. The only war on earth that I could compare it to would be the 30 years war. If you want to use the USA analogue, then the WWII/Korea period followed by Vietnam... Vietnam ended in a military victory but a defeat due to the populace not supporting the effort and who just wanted it to STOP with 3 million men, 1:30 in Uniform around the world for the last 30 years. Essentially every man growing up for 30 years was in the military or supporting it and only luck kept you out of the draft.

Grayson is Tired but on an upward trajectory.
Grayson has no true external threat.
Grayson will support its allies and keep its hand in the politics this way. So, I see many spec ops and commerce protection duties. Power projection?(SDP/CLAC) Will be pruned to the bone but kept in reserve.

I certainly agree that more care should be taken with the quote structure to maintain the correct attributions.

Seems to me that Grayson does have an external threat: Oyster Bay hurt them badly, as you mention in your post.

However that strike did not touch their orbital farms, so they should not have a problem feeding the population. Certainly putting domes over farms is important, because they are easier and cheaper to operate than the orbitals; but need not have the highest priority. Do we know anything about genetic mods to their farm animals to survive a heavy metal environment? Seems as though there must have been at the same time as the early human mods.

Women might not generally choose construction, trades or engineering in peacetime; that is not true in wartime, particularly now that societal attitudes on a woman's place are changing. Remember Rosie the Riveter.

Given the Grayson belief in the Test, they might not be as war weary as the USA in the midst of the Vietnam War; when feelings were made worse by the belief that US leaders did not know what they were doing (as McNamara admitted in his book).

How does the Hundred Years War compare in intensity to the Thirty Years War? Was it only 30% as intense?
Edit: changed treat to threat.
Last edited by tlb on Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by kzt   » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:45 am

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Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9681
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

The 30 years war was about 2000% more. It’s what led to the formal laws of war, after people looked at the wasteland they created in Central Europe.
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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:41 pm

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Posts: 3296
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Windsor CT.

Relax wrote:GSN:
SD: All retired
SDP: Some mothballed
CLAC: Most mothballed
BCP: Front line service
BC: Mothballed
CA: Front Line service
Interdiction Ships: Retained and more built
DD: Replaced

Home system: Forts on rotating basis
DD+LAC as well.

PS: Don't save much in manpower as most GSN models have few manpower requirements.

PPS: Paring down on the logistics pipeline on the other hand could save a LOT of manpower and $$$. So, all old models with single drive missiles and heavy manpower = GONE. Sell them. Probably make more selling them than they paid for them due to the interstellar situation. I could even see them eliminating the BCP and retaining the SDP while updating the CA, like adding power outlets to its hull so it can carry 40 pods indefinitely.....



Add

CL - replaced with LERM model (Avalon analogue)

CLs are considered the "Plum" assignment for Aspiring GSN Captains, they are used as independent strategic scouts and commerce escorts, with 40 being in the mid war OOP (only 20 Destroyers). Being independent commands, they allowed young captains to prove their mettle without constant oversite (The RMN considered Battlecruisers to be this role, but the navy usually knows your capability before they hand you a BC). I doubt the GSN will get rid of them, but the emphasis might be shifted to the Roland Analogues due to their size/lethality/cruising capability)

CLACS - The Protector's own will probably retain their CLAC force, as well as any Squadrons covering Masada, and a squadron or so in Homefleet for emergency deployments. But I agree, with Grayson on the defensive, having enough CLACS to support every SD(p) squadron on the move is excessive, when LACs can base out of local defensive structures.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Where Next for the GSN?
Post by Relax   » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:13 pm

Relax
Admiral

Posts: 2673
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:18 pm

Theemile wrote:
CL - replaced with LERM model (Avalon analogue)

CLs are considered the "Plum" assignment for Aspiring GSN Captains, they are used as independent strategic scouts and commerce escorts, with 40 being in the mid war OOP (only 20 Destroyers). Being independent commands, they allowed young captains to prove their mettle without constant oversite (The RMN cons


I don't see the suitability of any single drive missile equipped ship. DD/CL class merges to become a new class entirely. I would almost argue that the CA also disappears, or the BCP. When a Single DD LERM is roughly 78 tons and a MK16G is 94tons, why bother with the LERM? Other than the fact you have them already... Now add in Logistics nightmare due to OB and the fact DW has essentially said fuel to run a ship is ~free. Outside of initial procurement material costs, may as well make slightly larger ships that have part commonality with your CA and BC classes.

It is not like the Avalon class carries many missiles. Roland carries more. When the missile tonnage only varies by 20% yet has limited vrs unlimited range... You could argue that if pods of MK16s had indefinite deployment options for the exterior of the hull we could all be singing a different story about SDM LERM Avalon class. Never use them unless you are deep and sinking fast.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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