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Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle

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Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:30 pm

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For the first few years of the Grand Alliance, any naval battle is going to be a massacre. The tech imbalance is just too severe; unless the SLN runs the GA ship out of ammunition or surprises them at energy range, the outcome isn't in doubt at all. So I set myself the challenge of creating a battle scenario that would be worth more attention than "Manties launched, some Sollies blew up, the survivors surrendered."

What I came up with was almost a rehash of OBS with a single Katana chasing a Rampart destroyer trying to reach the hyper limit. For... reasons... BAD THINGS would happen if the Sollie is allowed out of the system to get help, and other... reasons... explain how a single Katana would find itself the only unit available to stop the fleeing destroyer. The details are unimportant.

I'm using a Katana because the missiles that Shrikes or Ferrets carry are actually designed to kill ships larger than DDs. A single Ferret would have no trouble taking out a DD with missiles. A single Shrike might not have enough missiles to finish the ship, but a graser shot certainly would and could be delivered from outside the range at which a Sollie DD energy mount is going to burn through the Shrike's bow wall.

First, I'm assuming the utility of Vipers against anything heavier than an LAC is minor but not trivial. Much like pelting an SD with hundreds of prewar DD sized missiles; individual hits can turn the outer surface of the ship into a golf ball of overlapping craters but can't penetrate to anything vital. Surface hits can still wreck surface features like missile tubes, energy mounts, point defense stations, sensors, drive nodes, etc. and will eventually reduce the missile defense capacity to nothing simply by attrition. At that point KI/contact nukes could finish the kill.

My mental image of a Viper hit is the same energy output of the "surface burn" Hexapuma delivered with its point defense lasers in SoS. Each hit can wreck a surface feature but not penetrate even a lightly armored warship. Of course, Hexapuma delivered scores of hits in a few seconds whereas Vipers take a missile to score just one hit of that caliber. The entire missile loadout of the Katana (120-ish, IIRC) of a Katana would be enough to "golf ball" a destroyer pretty well but not be enough to assure the ship is incapacitated or even rendered incapable of hyper drive.

During the approach the Katana captain makes the decision to leave all missile defense to the PDLs rather than wasting even a single Viper that could be inflicting damage on the enemy. It's risky but so is not getting enough hits through to disable the DD. Presumably this pays off or the story would end at that point.

After unloading everything it had at the DD, that leaves the Katana having to close to literal suicide range to take one pass with its forward point defense clusters before the DDs surviving energy mount gets a shot through the bow wall. It's unlikely the DD would be entirely defanged, after all.

I see two possible endings to this scenario. In both cases the Shrike captain orders the rest of the crew into the life pod and ejects them a few seconds short of the DD. In the first possibility the Shrike commits to a pass within 5k km while covering itself with its wedge, then rolling down and goes to full power a couple seconds out and simply rams the DD. Wedge collision kills both ships. The second possibility is that the Katana closes to the same range, turns its bow to the DD and targets all of its forward lasers on the DD's aft impeller ring. With all the previous structural damage to the DD, this shatters the narrowest dimension of the ship and the aft hammerhead is completely blown off. Shockwaves and asymmetric stresses finish tearing the DD apart - but a shot from a remaining energy mount punches through the bow wall at that absurdly short range and destroys the Katana.

Has this sort of scenario been discussed on the board? Other than the conditions setting up the battle, is any of it implausible or inconsistent with canon tech?
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by Theemile   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:24 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote:For the first few years of the Grand Alliance, any naval battle is going to be a massacre. The tech imbalance is just too severe; unless the SLN runs the GA ship out of ammunition or surprises them at energy range, the outcome isn't in doubt at all. So I set myself the challenge of creating a battle scenario that would be worth more attention than "Manties launched, some Sollies blew up, the survivors surrendered."

What I came up with was almost a rehash of OBS with a single Katana chasing a Rampart destroyer trying to reach the hyper limit. For... reasons... BAD THINGS would happen if the Sollie is allowed out of the system to get help, and other... reasons... explain how a single Katana would find itself the only unit available to stop the fleeing destroyer. The details are unimportant.

I'm using a Katana because the missiles that Shrikes or Ferrets carry are actually designed to kill ships larger than DDs. A single Ferret would have no trouble taking out a DD with missiles. A single Shrike might not have enough missiles to finish the ship, but a graser shot certainly would and could be delivered from outside the range at which a Sollie DD energy mount is going to burn through the Shrike's bow wall.

First, I'm assuming the utility of Vipers against anything heavier than an LAC is minor but not trivial. Much like pelting an SD with hundreds of prewar DD sized missiles; individual hits can turn the outer surface of the ship into a golf ball of overlapping craters but can't penetrate to anything vital. Surface hits can still wreck surface features like missile tubes, energy mounts, point defense stations, sensors, drive nodes, etc. and will eventually reduce the missile defense capacity to nothing simply by attrition. At that point KI/contact nukes could finish the kill.

My mental image of a Viper hit is the same energy output of the "surface burn" Hexapuma delivered with its point defense lasers in SoS. Each hit can wreck a surface feature but not penetrate even a lightly armored warship. Of course, Hexapuma delivered scores of hits in a few seconds whereas Vipers take a missile to score just one hit of that caliber. The entire missile loadout of the Katana (120-ish, IIRC) of a Katana would be enough to "golf ball" a destroyer pretty well but not be enough to assure the ship is incapacitated or even rendered incapable of hyper drive.

During the approach the Katana captain makes the decision to leave all missile defense to the PDLs rather than wasting even a single Viper that could be inflicting damage on the enemy. It's risky but so is not getting enough hits through to disable the DD. Presumably this pays off or the story would end at that point.

After unloading everything it had at the DD, that leaves the Katana having to close to literal suicide range to take one pass with its forward point defense clusters before the DDs surviving energy mount gets a shot through the bow wall. It's unlikely the DD would be entirely defanged, after all.

I see two possible endings to this scenario. In both cases the Shrike captain orders the rest of the crew into the life pod and ejects them a few seconds short of the DD. In the first possibility the Shrike commits to a pass within 5k km while covering itself with its wedge, then rolling down and goes to full power a couple seconds out and simply rams the DD. Wedge collision kills both ships. The second possibility is that the Katana closes to the same range, turns its bow to the DD and targets all of its forward lasers on the DD's aft impeller ring. With all the previous structural damage to the DD, this shatters the narrowest dimension of the ship and the aft hammerhead is completely blown off. Shockwaves and asymmetric stresses finish tearing the DD apart - but a shot from a remaining energy mount punches through the bow wall at that absurdly short range and destroys the Katana.

Has this sort of scenario been discussed on the board? Other than the conditions setting up the battle, is any of it implausible or inconsistent with canon tech?


Off hand comment.

A Viper carries a single 3m DD/CL laser rod, instead of the 3 mormally found in a standard DD/CL missile. So 3 vipers have the hitting power of 1 DD/CL missile. So essentially, you just need more Vipers to do the same job DD/CL missiles could do.

I believe Shrike/Ferret missiles are also DD/CL class weapons. At BoMA, the Ferrets with home fleet focused their attacks on the Havenite CAs, whose lighter sidewalls and armor were still vulnerable to the missiles, while the Shrikes dove on the BCs with their Grasers.

Shrike bow walls are BB strength or higher. To burn through a Shrike's sidewalls and bow walls, a classic DD would almost need to be in touching distance.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by cthia   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:35 pm

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In this corner: the SLN
Coming in at a combined weight of 150 BCs.


In this corner: the RMN
Coming in at a combined weight of 50 BCs and 300 Shrikes


Goal: Strictly an energy battle where experience and tactical acumen becomes the more serious opponent.


Homework: Adjust Shrikes for overall even parity of fire. SLN advantage in BCs is to remain at 3 to 1.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by stewart   » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:33 am

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cthia wrote:In this corner: the SLN
Coming in at a combined weight of 150 BCs.


In this corner: the RMN
Coming in at a combined weight of 50 BCs and 300 Shrikes


Goal: Strictly an energy battle where experience and tactical acumen becomes the more serious opponent.


Homework: Adjust Shrikes for overall even parity of fire. SLN advantage in BCs is to remain at 3 to 1.




*********

Cthia --



1) A "fair fight" is when all your own guys & gals get to go home


A clarification please --

Are the RMN/GA BC's
a) BC's -- Reliant class / Warlord-C / Couvassier I's ?

b) BC(h) -- Nike's ?

c) BC(p) -- Couvassier II's / Aggamemnon's ?

If options (b) or (c), I see no reason not to disable/mission cripple the SLN Nevada's (assumed) with Mk 16G's or Mk 23's and let the LAC's sweep up the pieces

-- Again see note 1 on "fair fights"

-- Stewart
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:52 am

cthia
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stewart wrote:
cthia wrote:In this corner: the SLN
Coming in at a combined weight of 150 BCs.


In this corner: the RMN
Coming in at a combined weight of 50 BCs and 300 Shrikes


Goal: Strictly an energy battle where experience and tactical acumen becomes the more serious opponent.


Homework: Adjust Shrikes for overall even parity of fire. SLN advantage in BCs is to remain at 3 to 1.




*********

Cthia --



1) A "fair fight" is when all your own guys & gals get to go home


A clarification please --

Are the RMN/GA BC's
a) BC's -- Reliant class / Warlord-C / Couvassier I's ?

b) BC(h) -- Nike's ?

c) BC(p) -- Couvassier II's / Aggamemnon's ?

If options (b) or (c), I see no reason not to disable/mission cripple the SLN Nevada's (assumed) with Mk 16G's or Mk 23's and let the LAC's sweep up the pieces

-- Again see note 1 on "fair fights"

-- Stewart


Why Stewart, that's the biggest compliment anyone has ever paid me. You're going to leave the choice of specific platform to . . .

1) Someone who didn't pass the Crusher. To someone who didn't pass Sag Isle even though he sat beside Pavel Young in class and witnessed Young constantly copying off of his paper yet Young somehow passed and he didn't.

2) To someone who doesn't have access to Jaynes or House of Steel.

3) To someone who may be related to Johnny when it comes to the tech side of the Honorverse. . .

Johnny was a chemist, but Johnny was a boob.

What Johnny thought was a boarding site was a core ejection tube.


IOW, damfino.

All I know is I long for a fair fight. Even Stevens on absolute firepower per side. All I can think of to grant that pipedream is to eliminate the missiles on both sides and reduce the engagement totally to an energy battle between two relatively equal forces, but with different force mixes altogether. Making the third player, tactics and skill level only, the deciding factor for a change.

I've longed for RFC to eliminate any tech advantage on either side and pit skill level against skill level.

Whatsamatter here, not enough LACs? If so, how many LACs to even the score? Or should the BC advantage be only 2 to 1 to finally reduce an engagement to that third player of skill & tactics, only.


The reason I long for it to come down to skill level and tactics is that the Haven sector has been polishing its tactics and skill level for decades to remain alive. In a straight up fight with equal forces absent any missile advantage, I would still expect the more experienced RMN to come out on top. You can easily defend the Queen's honor with one ship, if you're the last ship standing.

Does the specific platform matter, since it's an energy engagement only? Does either of the RMN BC designs have an advantage in grasers?


BTW thanks, for the compliment, Stewart. :D

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by munroburton   » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:18 am

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Not sure what a Rampart's capabilities are. If it's similar to a RMN Culverin, then it has up to a total of fourteen missile launchers. At 20 missiles per tube, this destroyer has 280 to expend.

A single Katana almost certainly could not kill such an unit, due to a SLN SDM outranging even the Viper. All it takes is one hit.

A squadron of Katanas would have enough Vipers to run the Culverin out of missiles. The squadron could then stand off just beyond energy range and pelt the destroyer with their remaining Vipers.
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:25 am

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In this corner: A large chunk of the reserve, rapidly scrambled and basically being totally run on automation. Even some AI was wiped up and installed into remotes. Plus anything else they could gather. Hiding in hyperspace.
In this corner: Honor's fleet for the attack on Sol
Scattered about: Merchant ships from a nation that newly "quit" the League. They quit at the behest of the SLN dreadnoughts over their planet. The merchant ships have new crews. :twisted:

The battle plan: As soon as Honor's fleet starts going through the Beowulf Terminus a merchant ship pops over into hyperspace and alerts the SLN fleet. SLN fleet promptly positions itself directly "above" the Beowulf terminus. Manticorian fleet pops directly into energy range of the SLN Navy with their sails out. Fun commences.

P.S. As far as I know I have seen zero examples of ships heading a couple light minutes past the hyperlimit before translating across.
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:02 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:-snap-
P.S. As far as I know I have seen zero examples of ships heading a couple light minutes past the hyperlimit before translating across.

Normally there would be no reason to do so; a translation into normal space creates a signal that can be observed, but a translation into hyperspace does not.

Question: does a translation into hyper space create a signal in the Alpha band or is there no signal at all?

Another question: is this all fan fiction or a hope for something that RFC might write, given the state of the League at the end of UH?
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by kzt   » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:11 pm

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tlb wrote:Question: does a translation into hyper space create a signal in the Alpha band or is there no signal at all?

David has said yes, there is a signal on Alpha.
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:48 pm

quite possibly a cat
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tlb wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:-snap-
P.S. As far as I know I have seen zero examples of ships heading a couple light minutes past the hyperlimit before translating across.

Normally there would be no reason to do so; a translation into normal space creates a signal that can be observed, but a translation into hyperspace does not.

Question: does a translation into hyper space create a signal in the Alpha band or is there no signal at all?

Another question: is this all fan fiction or a hope for something that RFC might write, given the state of the League at the end of UH?
Manticore is unlikely to attack the new League first. The League is unlikely to attack until they have an overwhelming advantage in numbers and tech. Which they could get if they really want to. (Embargo Manticore, bribe the Verge worlds to do the same, build an overwhelming tech and resources advantage.)
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