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Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle

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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:22 am

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tlb wrote:Anyway, please give the source for your price tag. I realize that there are some plant products which are extremely pricy; but I would expect the brains at Beowulf to have created a more productive source.

Edited, because I wondered at the population figure of a trillion; but if even Gryhon has a population of 600 million according to The Honorverse Companion, then that might be a good approximation.

kzt wrote:It cost about as much as a restaurant per one of the Flint/Weber books. David later said, well, a small restaurant. I suspect a NYC type hot dog cart costs 10k, and you can’t get much smaller than that.

Okay, I remember that reference; here it is from Torch of Freedom:
Chapter 38
Besides, the BSC would be footing most of the bill anyway. They'd agreed to pay the Butry clan an annual stipend for the use of the station. The stipend was more than enough to pay for the expense of providing every one of its members still young enough with prolong treatments—and with plenty left over to send them away for a regular education. The contribution of the Ballroom—technically, the Torch military and if you accepted that at face value you were a moron—was mostly going to be muscle. They'd be the ones who staffed the station, maintained the pretense it was still a slaver entrepot while actually using it as a combination stellar safe house and way station for covert operations—and treat themselves to shooting down the stray slaver ship that showed up from time to time.

Chapter 63
"How about us? How soon will we be going to Beowulf?" Nancy asked.
"I'm not sure about that either. I know Ganny wants us to go as soon as possible. Well, given the space available and where we are in the rotation."
That had been part of the deal. Every member of the clan still young enough was being transported to Beowulf in order to begin prolong treatments. The order in which they'd go was determined by their age. Those like Sarah Armstrong and Michael Alsobrook who were getting close to the limit would be sent first, of course. Brice and Ed and James were not at the top of the list, but he figured they'd be going pretty soon.
Best of all, Nancy would be going with them. It was too late for her mother Steph to undergo prolong, but not for Nancy herself.
Zilwicki had been as good as his word. Better, actually. The expense of paying for a complete suite of prolong treatments for her daughter was going to be at least as high as the expense of setting up Steph Turner in a new restaurant. But Anton hadn't blinked. "I'll cover the cost if Beowulf gets sticky about it."
From something Cachat had said, though, Brice thought Beowulf would probably just handle Nancy's treatments as part of the general arrangement they'd made with Ganny. When Brice had once expressed his concern over the issue to Victor, the Havenite had gotten a very cold smile on his face.
"I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, Brice. It's going to be a while yet—there are some other people we have to talk to first, for several reasons—but unless I miss my guess, you're going to see the rage of Beowulf unleashed in the universe sometime pretty damned soon now. They're not going to quibble over the cost of an extra prolong treatment while they're sinking a fortune into forging the weapons to finally take down Grendel.


So I am wrong.

Since I have not yet read UH, I do not know about the financial strength of the new League. Wouldn't this cost be beyond their means also?
At that rate, if prolong treatments are a government benefit of Manticore; does this mean that the average family is barred from voting during the year that a child receives the treatment?

Note that I am not asking if the core worlds could afford it taken together, but could the new League do so based on whatever funding it receives. For any core world with prolong as a benefit, a significant part of their annual GDP is committed to prolong treatments (approximately the cost per treatment times the birth rate, assuming a low childhood mortality rate).

If the new League really eliminates corruption and reflects the will of the core planets, then why would they want to go to war with the SEM or GA? I am asking on the principle that democracies almost never go to war against other democracies.
Last edited by tlb on Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:19 pm

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tlb wrote:So I am wrong.

Since I have not yet read UH, I do not know about the financial strength of the new League. Wouldn't this cost be beyond their means also?
At that rate, if prolong treatments are a government benefit of Manticore; does this mean that the average family is barred from voting during the year that a child receives the treatment?

I'm sure basic universal services are exempt from that "government transfer" policy, otherwise many families would also be ineligible while their children attended public school. The transfer policy would be more like equivalents of food stamps, medicaid, housing subsidies, etc.

The League was responsible for many of the Verge systems being as poor as they were; once the OFS and transstellar leeches are off their backs there should be sufficient economic growth for some of those systems to start paying for their own prolong. The hardest part (financially) will be paying for all the people who are near the age cutoff; the hardest part morally will be having to accept that they won't be able to help everyone all at once and having to effectively "triage" entire systems for later rather than earlier assistance - knowing that every year that goes by condemns untold millions to early, preventable deaths.

Also, we don't know anything about how prolong is made. Can production even be scaled up rapidly enough to meet such a massive spike in demand?
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:52 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote:I'm sure basic universal services are exempt from that "government transfer" policy, otherwise many families would also be ineligible while their children attended public school. The transfer policy would be more like equivalents of food stamps, medicaid, housing subsidies, etc.
Really, I'm not sure how well thought through that part of the Constitution was. It seems super ripe for abuse. Just make sure all your voters get free services that don't count against taxes, and make sure their voters get services that do.
The League was responsible for many of the Verge systems being as poor as they were; once the OFS and transstellar leeches are off their backs there should be sufficient economic growth for some of those systems to start paying for their own prolong. The hardest part (financially) will be paying for all the people who are near the age cutoff; the hardest part morally will be having to accept that they won't be able to help everyone all at once and having to effectively "triage" entire systems for later rather than earlier assistance - knowing that every year that goes by condemns untold millions to early, preventable deaths.
The economies won't recover overnight. If they want to recover as quickly as possible they'll need plenty of investment and it still won't be enough to save the millions of people each year.

Which is what makes Prolong such an effective bribe.
Also, we don't know anything about how prolong is made. Can production even be scaled up rapidly enough to meet such a massive spike in demand?
That's a good question. The League of course, consumes the overwhelming percentage of Prolong, so if scaling Prolong production up is difficult the League will be in a much better position to help.


tlb wrote:If the new League really eliminates corruption and reflects the will of the core planets, then why would they want to go to war with the SEM or GA?
Because the GA (apparently) murdered millions of innocent civilians in cold blood? Its like literally the one thing we're told the League as a whole cares about.

Now its possible that the GA could get proven innocent, but its also possible that frame sticks. The nuking of Beowulf might help, but honestly, is it really surprising that those nuke tossing Mesan terrorists turned on the GA after what happened at Mesa? Really what's more plausible, a spooky ancient conspiracy of genetic supermen, or that the terrorists that Beowulf is in bed with turned on them? Plus, the truth isn't really all that good. "Oh we only helped terrorists nuke a few thousand people. See totally, innocent!"

I am asking on the principle that democracies almost never go to war against other democracies.
The GA isn't even close to a democracy. The main members are an absolute monarchy, two hybrids with heavy autocratic elements and one actual democracy (assuming it doesn't regress).
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:16 pm

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tlb wrote:I am asking on the principle that democracies almost never go to war against other democracies.

quite possibly a cat wrote:The GA isn't even close to a democracy. The main members are an absolute monarchy, two hybrids with heavy autocratic elements and one actual democracy (assuming it doesn't regress).

I am guessing that Grayson is the absolute monarchy and Haven is the actual restored democracy? Then I guess that you mean Torch and the SEM, both constitutional monarchies, are the two hybrids with autocratic elements? Did I get that right or did you go with the propaganda that Manticore is an absolute monarchy?
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by kzt   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:00 pm

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Core you have Haven, most famous for launching a 200 year wave of conquest. Now claims to be a Democracy, but is run by a member of the mass murdering security forces and one of the leading conquers. Hmm.

We have Grayson, an absolute monarchy. Which isn’t exansionistic, but is terribly reactionary.

We have the Manticoran Star Empire with and emperor and recent conquest of say 40 systems. They of course claim no expansionistic aims, and the proof is umm...

And in the corner, trying to play let’s pretend, in the Imperial Andermani Empire, an absolute Monarchy that is blatantly expansionistic, having joined with the SEM to destroy an old established republic a few years ago.

No, clearly you can trust all of them not to take over if you relax your guard.
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:12 pm

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kzt wrote: And in the corner, trying to play let’s pretend, is the Imperial Andermani Empire, an absolute Monarchy that is blatantly expansionistic, having joined with the SEM to destroy an old established republic a few years ago.

No, clearly you can trust all of them not to take over if you relax your guard.

But the Andermani Empire was neutral in the fight against the old League, so not part of the GA.
Was Silesia considered a republic, or a confederation?

Interesting construction on that last sentence; not sure how to parse it, although I think I understand the intent.
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by George J. Smith   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:19 pm

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tlb wrote:
kzt wrote: And in the corner, trying to play let’s pretend, is the Imperial Andermani Empire, an absolute Monarchy that is blatantly expansionistic, having joined with the SEM to destroy an old established republic a few years ago.

No, clearly you can trust all of them not to take over if you relax your guard.

But the Andermani Empire was neutral in the fight against the old League, so not part of the GA.
Was Silesia considered a republic, or a confederation?

Interesting construction on that last sentence; not sure how to parse it, although I think I understand the intent.


IIRC Silesia was a confederation.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by kzt   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:38 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:
IIRC Silesia was a confederation.

They had an elected government.
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:10 am

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kzt wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:
IIRC Silesia was a confederation.

They had an elected government.


So did the Solarian League. Which in actuality had as much control over the bureaucracy as the late 19th century Belgian governments had on the Abir* Congo Company; i.e., none.

*aka Compagnie du Congo Belge
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:19 pm

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:They had an elected government.


So did the Solarian League. Which in actuality had as much control over the bureaucracy as the late 19th century Belgian governments had on the Abir* Congo Company; i.e., none.

*aka Compagnie du Congo Belge[/quote]
They actually had influence. The last president who tried to reform was assassinated along with most of her government in a coup from Mesa.
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