Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle

P.S. And must point out, that the assumption that "Eridani Edict is for universal good" is pretty much biased. Look at the other side; Eridani Edict basically made interstellar wars and imperialism a "joyful, fun and profitable enterprises". And it also left smaller and weaker star nations completely at the mercy of bigger and powerful, because the war in Honorverse is usual way of solving political problems, and lesser star nations could not have conventional forces capable of deterring the more powerful opponent.

It's basically the ol' "A Taste of Armageddon", from TOS Star Trek. Eridani Edict created the situation for a "clean and nice war", with very little destruction and very limited suffering. It removed the dread out of the war (except for the fear of defeat, but it is clearly not enough). Just recall how badly Manticoran's reacted on the collateral damage of Yawata Strike. Its basically the reaction of British peoples in 1915, after the first zeppelin's raids - the shocking discovery that the war is not something "far away, only for boys in uniform" anymore, but the destruction could rain over anyone.

So it's pretty disputable, what's worse; the occasional violation of the Edict but with threat of mass destruction as effective show-stopper for interstellar warfare (i.e. the wars are MUCH less common, but SOME of them are quite brutal) or current situation with the "war as usual". I'm not saying that "Honorverse should be better without Edict", but it wrong to consider it as some sort of "universal good."

Galactic Sapper wrote:No, I very specifically accounted for terminal evasion, and even ran the numbers at 10k G. The only way your drone ships are getting out of the range basket of final stage MDMs is if they have missile-level acceleration themselves. The math simply DOES NOT WORK, even for MDMs with a large ballistic flight component.

Er... the idea is NOT "getting out of the basket". The idea is to make the ship position unpredictable enough, that the missile would basically fail to home accurately.

Let's not forget, we are talking about very high-speed missiles, that make attacks at significant portion of speed of light. The Mark 23 have terminal velocity of about 0,83c. At such velocity, the missile electronics would work less than half-fast than usual - due to time dilation. Basically, the missiles would be sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly reacting on the target's maneuvering. Any random maneuvering - "drinkwalk" - would put serious strain on the missile's ability to actually predict where to aim. The more acceleration target have, the heavier it is for missile to work out solution.

Galactic Sapper wrote:You're getting into territory such that EE violations are the logical counter. Eliminating the industrial base - by any means required - is the only counter.

Totally wiping out the enemy production base, the most important part of which is people, basically always counters everything and it always becomes the last resort of the defender. That wouldn't be unique to drones. Besides, you probably don't want people living in your drone factory!

tlb wrote:That sort of unanimity will not die with the old league and there is no reason why the GA would disagree. Specifically, it is not just morality but practicality that dictates this. The GA hoped that the League would fracture and then they could reach an accommodation with the resulting pieces. If the GA were to "glass" a planet, it is difficult to see how this would be maintained. Crash programs across the Core worlds would start to try to negate GA military advantage and at some point this would result in a "interesting" GA naval battle.

Umm... as far as everyone in the SL is concerned the GA already violated the EE. Even if the truth comes out, it doesn't matter since the GA was behind Green Pines. The EE is de facto dead if you can just use a cut out for violations, so it doesn't matter it was actually a seccie who triggered the bomb.

So unless the GA somehow manages to successfully lie their way out of their misdeeds or the new EE is written in the blood of our beloved heroes, the EE is for all intents and purposes dead.

Honestly, I really can't see a reason for the new League to include the EE. They could include a modified EE that downgrades retaliation to something they can do. Maybe just attach this to the end: "If the League is unable to destroy the violating star nation within 180 days of the EE violation, the violator gets embargoed, quarantined and forfeits the protection of the EE.

This is retroactive and [list of star nations] have been stripped of their EE protections are embargoed and quarantined. Yawata Bay attackers, feel free to finish the job against Manticore. You don't need to worry about the EE anymore. Mesans feel free to unleash any bioweapons you stashed away on the GA."

Dilandu wrote:P.S. And must point out, that the assumption that "Eridani Edict is for universal good" is pretty much biased. Look at the other side; Eridani Edict basically made interstellar wars and imperialism a "joyful, fun and profitable enterprises". And it also left smaller and weaker star nations completely at the mercy of bigger and powerful, because the war in Honorverse is usual way of solving political problems, and lesser star nations could not have conventional forces capable of deterring the more powerful opponent.

Absolutely. Without the EE any star nation can say "Attack and we obliterate you." See the IRL situation with North Korea. War is unthinkable.

Combine it with drones and you can even make it so you don't have blood on your hands. "Attack me and our automated drones will obliterate your worlds." Then it is the attacker who kills their own people.

Honestly, I think the EE was a terrible idea the way it was mutually written. Defenders should be allowed the means needed to defend themselves. Even if that means planet busting the attacker. Ultimately, you need to be willing to shoot through the human shields or the bad guys win.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Honestly, I think the EE was a terrible idea the way it was mutually written. Defenders should be allowed the means needed to defend themselves. Even if that means planet busting the attacker. Ultimately, you need to be willing to shoot through the human shields or the bad guys win.

If you win by planet busting, then the bad guys have won.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Umm... as far as everyone in the SL is concerned the GA already violated the EE. Even if the truth comes out, it doesn't matter since the GA was behind Green Pines. The EE is de facto dead if you can just use a cut out for violations, so it doesn't matter it was actually a seccie who triggered the bomb.

Well, technically true, otherwise "insurgent activity" would be perfect excuse for any possible Edict violation. So, the involvement of foreign personnel in such kind of anti-civilian attack could possibly be considered an Edict violation without much formal strain. And considering that it was Zilwicky actions that went to Green Pines incident (albeit indirectly)... yes, it probably could be considered as such.

tlb wrote:If you win by planet busting, then the bad guys have won.

Please say this to USAAF personnel who city-busted Japan in 1945.

tlb wrote:If you win by planet busting, then the bad guys have won.

Dilandu wrote:Please say this to USAAF personnel who city-busted Japan in 1945.

I have in other threads complained about the strategic bombing campaigns by both the RAF and USAAF in WWII. Bomber Harris objected when asked to hit tactical targets instead of German cities. In Europe there is the excuse of Luftwaffe terror bombing, which does not apply to Japan (aside from their behavior on the Asian continent).
The excuse for the atomic bombing was that the invasion would produce over a million casualties; based on the difficulty of taking Okinawa.

tlb wrote:I have in other threads complained about the strategic bombing campaigns by both the RAF and USAAF in WWII. Bomber Harris objected when asked to hit tactical targets instead of German cities. In Europe there is the excuse of Luftwaffe terror bombing, which does not apply to Japan (aside from their behavior on the Asian continent).
The excuse for the atomic bombing was that the invasion would produce over a million casualties; based on the difficulty of taking Okinawa.

So the strategic bombing worked. And thus bad guys didn't won.

Dilandu wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:No, I very specifically accounted for terminal evasion, and even ran the numbers at 10k G. The only way your drone ships are getting out of the range basket of final stage MDMs is if they have missile-level acceleration themselves. The math simply DOES NOT WORK, even for MDMs with a large ballistic flight component.

Er... the idea is NOT "getting out of the basket". The idea is to make the ship position unpredictable enough, that the missile would basically fail to home accurately.

Let's not forget, we are talking about very high-speed missiles, that make attacks at significant portion of speed of light. The Mark 23 have terminal velocity of about 0,83c. At such velocity, the missile electronics would work less than half-fast than usual - due to time dilation. Basically, the missiles would be sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly reacting on the target's maneuvering. Any random maneuvering - "drinkwalk" - would put serious strain on the missile's ability to actually predict where to aim. The more acceleration target have, the heavier it is for missile to work out solution.

The missiles are already specced to perform the same targeting task on ships capable of 700+ gees. 1000 gees is a trivial incremental increase to that. The missile must target the ship in a handful of milliseconds anyway. It might make a marginal difference in percentage of hits but not the "dodging bullets" type difference you seem to think.

Galactic Sapper wrote:The missiles are already specced to perform the same targeting task on ships capable of 700+ gees. 1000 gees is a trivial incremental increase to that. The missile must target the ship in a handful of milliseconds anyway. It might make a marginal difference in percentage of hits but not the "dodging bullets" type difference you seem to think.

1000 g - maybe. 7000 g - not so much)