Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Fox2!, JohnRoth, kzt and 9 guests

Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:14 am

Dilandu
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1490
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Russia

tlb wrote: If Haven were convinced that the conquest of Toulon might be a big loss, but the effects of doing so would be an increase in people getting off the Dole to get in the navy (which is what happened after taking on Manticore) and an easier conquest of other worlds due to the example set, then Haven might well proceed against Toulon despite the economic cost.


Considering that cost of such war might be devastative, it would be simply cheaper to just abolish the Dole at all. Again: the whole reason of Haven war was because it was considered cheaper by the ruling classes to maintain system by conquests, than to abolish the Dole. But if the result might be the devastation of Haven itself - even the
Legislaturists would prefer to deal with unhappy Dolists.
so would be an increase in people getting off the Dole to get in the navy


Seriously... Haven have literally billions of Dolists, and how many they could possibly squeeze into Navy? A dozen millions? This is a teardrop in swimming pool.

Try to remember that this line of discourse was set by you and cat claiming that the Eridani Edict made conquest easy, so the Edict was not a good thing.


Yes.
You are now saying that pure economics can make imperialism unlikely. I am saying that unlikely is not impossible,


Please give me example of imperialistic war of conquest against nuclear nation.


Finally the biggest colonial empire did end after WWII due to economics, but not in the way you meant: the British lost their empire because they impoverished themselves fighting the Germans. The US gave up the Panama Canal and the Philippines, but not for an economic reason. Only the French gave up colonies because of the economic cost of military action (perhaps I should include the USSR's actions in Afghanistan also, but then giving up Eastern Europe is a counterexample).


Nah. The general reason of colonialism collapse was exactly because the colonies stopped to be profitable. World War 2 left too many trained personnel even among colonials, and advent of automatic weapons gave guerilla's the edge in the war of attrition against regular troops in colonies. And most importantly - both USA and USSR wanted colonial system destroyed, albeit for different reasons (USA wanted to open colonial markets to American trade, USSR wanted to put the former colonies on the socialist way).
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:10 am

tlb
Captain of the List

Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

tlb wrote: If Haven were convinced that the conquest of Toulon might be a big loss, but the effects of doing so would be an increase in people getting off the Dole to get in the navy (which is what happened after taking on Manticore) and an easier conquest of other worlds due to the example set, then Haven might well proceed against Toulon despite the economic cost.

Dilandu wrote:Considering that cost of such war might be devastative, it would be simply cheaper to just abolish the Dole at all. Again: the whole reason of Haven war was because it was considered cheaper by the ruling classes to maintain system by conquests, than to abolish the Dole. But if the result might be the devastation of Haven itself - even the
Legislaturists would prefer to deal with unhappy Dolists. so would be an increase in people getting off the Dole to get in the navy

Seriously... Haven have literally billions of Dolists, and how many they could possibly squeeze into Navy? A dozen millions? This is a teardrop in swimming pool.

You state the heart of my argument in the lines I have highlighted; the decision makers in Haven are NOT acting as rational economic agents with perfect knowledge of outcomes.
You write as though you have a quote from me; at best it is a paraphrase. I should have said the war effort, which would also include shipyard work and so on.
tlb wrote:Try to remember that this line of discourse was set by you and cat claiming that the Eridani Edict made conquest easy, so the Edict was not a good thing.

Dilandu wrote:Yes.

tlb wrote: You are now saying that pure economics can make imperialism unlikely. I am saying that unlikely is not impossible,

Dilandu wrote: Please give me example of imperialistic war of conquest against nuclear nation.

All of Haven's conquests were against nuclear nations. So let me restate the salient point.
The decision makers operate on more than just economic motivations and they can be incorrect in any of their reasons, but once started may continue to forge onward (the sunk cost fallacy).

The Eridani Edict would not stop the Dague from hitting the Haven home planet with as much damage as it possibly could. The League would not do anything because Toulon is already under Haven control.
So how does the Edict prevent a weak planet from threatening ultimate destruction in self defense?
Top
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:06 pm

Lord Skimper
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

I'm thinking a current Silesian Navy Using a thousand ERM equipped SD's left over from and recovered from all the GA main fleets that are no longer being used. Shouldn't be too hard to gather 4-6 million crew to run a fleet of 1000 SD using old tech with new missiles. Even without pods although one might use new comms. As part of the Empire 1000 SD would have a ERM throw weight of 70000 missiles with a range of 14+ million km. Not so good against GA current tech but Solly Tech would be hard pressed. Using Towed pods you could launch 14+ missiles per pods, 1000 times however many pods 14-108 depending on tech used. 200,000 to 1.5 million plus missiles. Might even fit 20 lerm missiles in a pod. up to 2 million plus missiles towed into combat with the right donkey system. The Star Empire Silesian Navy GA could have a totally useless and yet totally effective versus the Solly Navy task force. Add in 200-400 DD CL and 300-600 CA and BC. Using Old tech that is all mothballed and doesn't affect the combat status of the Star Empire at all. Costs next to nothing outside node costs which can be made in Silesia and Counter missiles. likewise can be made in Silesia. And even if not all Manty or Andy officers would trust them, ingrained bigotry and all, The Silesian Navy could steam roll huge parts of the Solly might use some Keyhole 1's the Solly's would be surrendering system after system. At no GA cost.
________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
Top
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:23 pm

tlb
Captain of the List

Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Lord Skimper wrote:I'm thinking a current Silesian Navy Using a thousand ERM equipped SD's left over from and recovered from all the GA main fleets that are no longer being used.

Most people approach this topic by trying to devise a way or a situation that would allow the SLN to achieve a victory. It is a real maverick approach to suggest that the SLN would have a better chance if the GA did not fight with front line forces; but instead used a third rate navy in obsolete ships.
I question the statement that this would cost the GA nothing: there would still be costs to assembling and supplying, plus medical benefits.
Top
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:10 pm

tlb
Captain of the List

Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Dilandu wrote:P.S. And must point out, that the assumption that "Eridani Edict is for universal good" is pretty much biased. Look at the other side; Eridani Edict basically made interstellar wars and imperialism a "joyful, fun and profitable enterprises". And it also left smaller and weaker star nations completely at the mercy of bigger and powerful, because the war in Honorverse is usual way of solving political problems, and lesser star nations could not have conventional forces capable of deterring the more powerful opponent.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Absolutely. Without the EE any star nation can say "Attack and we obliterate you." --snip--
Honestly, I think the EE was a terrible idea the way it was mutually written. Defenders should be allowed the means needed to defend themselves. Even if that means planet busting the attacker. Ultimately, you need to be willing to shoot through the human shields or the bad guys win.

I am reposting this question, because I think it needs an answer in the light of the statements above.

How does the Eridani Edict prevent a weak planet from threatening ultimate destruction in self defense?

After the Toulon ship evades the conquering Haven fleet; the Eridani Edict would not stop the Dague from hitting the Haven home planet with as much planet shattering damage as it could achieve. The League would not do anything to Toulon, because it is already under Haven control. The officers of the ship would be regarded as pirates, but that is what happened to them anyway.

If you cannot answer the question, then I do not think you can justify saying that the Eridani Edict basically made interstellar wars and imperialism a "joyful, fun and profitable enterprises".
Top
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by Lord Skimper   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:58 pm

Lord Skimper
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

tlb wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:I'm thinking a current Silesian Navy Using a thousand ERM equipped SD's left over from and recovered from all the GA main fleets that are no longer being used.

Most people approach this topic by trying to devise a way or a situation that would allow the SLN to achieve a victory. It is a real maverick approach to suggest that the SLN would have a better chance if the GA did not fight with front line forces; but instead used a third rate navy in obsolete ships.
I question the statement that this would cost the GA nothing: there would still be costs to assembling and supplying, plus medical benefits.


Ship cost is minimal. Missiles can be made in Silesia by Silesian's. Crew are Silesian's who are not doing anything else. Plus it will Help with moral. Only an American would think of Medical costs, pretty sure medical is already inclusive. Every SD has full medical for crews.

31 planets of Silesia full of space faring people itching to get back into space. Offer them SD and they will volunteer in the 10's of millions. ERM missiles double the fire power of old SD and Double their range. You can fire them off axis might have to build a couple Keyhole 1 to have each ship tow but even that is not threatening to the GA but would threaten the Solly's to no end.

The Sollies could out number any such force but it is unlikely they would.

If you want a sollie win how about a dozen Sollie tin cans with 6 10 pack missile pods cataphract C's vs a Patch of empty Manty space. Just hoping nothing is parked there wedge down.
________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
Top
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:37 pm

tlb
Captain of the List

Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Lord Skimper wrote:I'm thinking a current Silesian Navy Using a thousand ERM equipped SD's left over from and recovered from all the GA main fleets that are no longer being used.

tlb wrote:Most people approach this topic by trying to devise a way or a situation that would allow the SLN to achieve a victory. It is a real maverick approach to suggest that the SLN would have a better chance if the GA did not fight with front line forces; but instead used a third rate navy in obsolete ships.
I question the statement that this would cost the GA nothing: there would still be costs to assembling and supplying, plus medical benefits.

Lord Skimper wrote:Ship cost is minimal. Missiles can be made in Silesia by Silesian's. Crew are Silesian's who are not doing anything else. Plus it will Help with moral. Only an American would think of Medical costs, pretty sure medical is already inclusive. Every SD has full medical for crews.

It just occurred to me that perhaps you are saying their medical expenses were covered as a civilian and so there is no incremental cost for them being a soldier; except that they are going from peace into a warzone where people will shoot back - their odds of injury have just increased dramatically. The area of Silesia that would be providing crew is part of the SKM, and so those crew would be paid by Manticore (unless you think that they should fight for free). The medical section on a starship will not provide the full range of care (particularly long term care) that injured crew members need, so there are additional expenses that will be borne by the government. The government will also have to cover death benefits.
Also consider feeding several million people; is that free? Are the missiles being made for free and did it cost nothing to create the assembly line?
Quibbling about cost is a sidebar discussion in a way, because this NOT going to happen: the SKM will NOT send people who have never operated an SD into battle. All you have done is to suggest a way to give the SLN a better chance, by putting third rate navy personnel into obsolete ships to fight them.
Top
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:24 am

tlb
Captain of the List

Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Dilandu wrote:P.S. And must point out, that the assumption that "Eridani Edict is for universal good" is pretty much biased. Look at the other side; Eridani Edict basically made interstellar wars and imperialism a "joyful, fun and profitable enterprises". And it also left smaller and weaker star nations completely at the mercy of bigger and powerful, because the war in Honorverse is usual way of solving political problems, and lesser star nations could not have conventional forces capable of deterring the more powerful opponent.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Absolutely. Without the EE any star nation can say "Attack and we obliterate you." --snip--
Honestly, I think the EE was a terrible idea the way it was mutually written. Defenders should be allowed the means needed to defend themselves. Even if that means planet busting the attacker. Ultimately, you need to be willing to shoot through the human shields or the bad guys win.

I am reposting this question, because I think it needs an answer in the light of the statements above.

How does the Eridani Edict prevent a weak planet from threatening ultimate destruction in self defense?

After the Toulon ship evades the conquering Haven fleet; the Eridani Edict would not stop the Dague from hitting the Haven home planet with as much planet shattering damage as it could achieve. The League would not do anything to Toulon, because it is already under Haven control. The officers of the ship would be regarded as pirates, but that is what happened to them anyway.

If you cannot answer the question, then I do not think you can justify saying that the Eridani Edict basically made interstellar wars and imperialism a "joyful, fun and profitable enterprises".

Long time, no reply; have they both gone on vacation?
Top
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by kzt   » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:53 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9586
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

How do laws convince criminals to be honest people and not violate the law?
Top
Re: Creating an "interesting" GA v SLN naval battle
Post by tlb   » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:07 pm

tlb
Captain of the List

Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

kzt wrote:How do laws convince criminals to be honest people and not violate the law?

The simple answer might be that they do not and were never intended to do so. Instead they draw a line in the sand and say that anyone that crosses is an enemy of society and can be treated with as much vigor as society deems necessary. Normally we expect that society's response will be proportional to the transgression.

For KZT: Sorry, was this question intended as a commentary on the Eridani Edict? I do not seem to be any better at answering rhetorical questions, than I am at asking them.

PS. AAC describes the Moriarty system, it does not mention the system defense called Mycroft.
Top

Return to Honorverse