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OFS Protectorates former pirates?

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OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:33 am

TFLYTSNBN

Arguing with Weber about diversity has inspired a question about OFS Protectorates.

Colonization requires more than just shipping people to a new world and star system. The colonists need tools and manufacturing infrastructure to sustain a minimal level technology base. It also requires a lot of people to sustain an advanced technology base. The more advanced a technology base is, the more people are required to sustain it. I would suggest that the minimum population needed to sustain a star faring civilization capable of bulding starships would be about 100 million people. Seed a system with a million colonists and they will need a century or two to get their population up to a level that can sustain their technology.

If your colony is below the minimum population threshold, you need to have brought enough tools and machinery with you to sustain your tech base until your population increases. Alternatively, you buy stuff. However, you can't buy unless you have something to sell.

If you have nothing to sell, may be you dabble in piracy?
Refit one of your colony ships as a raider or buy an obsolete frigate. Go to some other system where you steal a few cargo ships worth of machine tools or dismantle the orbital infrastructure to take home.

Raiding other small colonies similar to yourself is not so profitable so you find a more lucrative target. A SL system that doesn't have an SDF and no FF presence makes a tempting target. Pick a victim that is hundreds of LYs away so you can remain anonymous.

Worst case scenario is that you are recognized. Your victims call the SL. The SL calls the SLN,. BF can not be bothered so they send in FF. FF is eager to kick ass but calls in it's OFS buddies to enjoy the fun.

Your system has just become an OFS Protectorate.

How many of the Protectorates and provisional SL members provoked their forcible annexation by dabbling in piracy?
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Re: OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:28 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Arguing with Weber about diversity has inspired a question about OFS Protectorates.

Colonization requires more than just shipping people to a new world and star system. The colonists need tools and manufacturing infrastructure to sustain a minimal level technology base. It also requires a lot of people to sustain an advanced technology base. The more advanced a technology base is, the more people are required to sustain it. I would suggest that the minimum population needed to sustain a star faring civilization capable of bulding starships would be about 100 million people. Seed a system with a million colonists and they will need a century or two to get their population up to a level that can sustain their technology.

If your colony is below the minimum population threshold, you need to have brought enough tools and machinery with you to sustain your tech base until your population increases. Alternatively, you buy stuff. However, you can't buy unless you have something to sell.

If you have nothing to sell, may be you dabble in piracy?
Refit one of your colony ships as a raider or buy an obsolete frigate. Go to some other system where you steal a few cargo ships worth of machine tools or dismantle the orbital infrastructure to take home.

Raiding other small colonies similar to yourself is not so profitable so you find a more lucrative target. A SL system that doesn't have an SDF and no FF presence makes a tempting target. Pick a victim that is hundreds of LYs away so you can remain anonymous.

Worst case scenario is that you are recognized. Your victims call the SL. The SL calls the SLN,. BF can not be bothered so they send in FF. FF is eager to kick ass but calls in it's OFS buddies to enjoy the fun.

Your system has just become an OFS Protectorate.

How many of the Protectorates and provisional SL members provoked their forcible annexation by dabbling in piracy?



Not as many as one might think but more than just a handful. You have to remember that OFS was created to meet a genuine perceived need --- often situations like the one you're describing, more often factionalized bickering within a single star system (or between two closely neighboring systems) which threatened to get really nasty really quickly and create an ugly, potentially dangerous situation within shouting range of the SL's somewhat amorphous borders. Think of it --- conceptually, at least --- as sending in the blue helmets. Then think about how long the UN is still involved in some of the places it's intervened. Then imagine the UN as having been authorized by its foundational charter to charge the people it's assisting enough to pay for its intervention investments of personnel and material.

That was the basic idea --- and the fee arrangement was actually necessitated by the SL Constitution's deliberate funding restrictions on the federal government. That is, if they were going to make OFS feasible, they had to make it self-funding . . . which is precisely what opened the door to the enormous (and enormously corrupt) Protectorates system which had become the bureaucrats' personal piggy bank by the time of the Mandarins.

None of this stuff happened overnight, and where the League wound up was at least the consequence of good intentions poorly executed as of any inherent evil intentions.


BTW, if anyone sees any parallels between OFS and the traditional Andermani foreign policy, you are quite correct. The difference is that the Andies clearly recognized expansion of their imperial mandate --- and created an orderly process for the incorporation of their new territories into the imperial system as full citizens with all the rights thereof --- and OFS was specifically charged not to simply go out and acquire outright possession as a consequence of their interventions. For those familiar with the history of the Spanish-American War, McKinley's request to Congress following the sinking of the Maine would probably provide some context to why OFS was created. The Teller amendment in Congress's response provides even more, though:

Teller amendment wrote:... [the US] hereby disclaims any disposition of intention to exercise sovereignty, jurisdiction, or control over said island except for pacification thereof, and asserts its determination, when that is accomplished, to leave the government and control of the island [Cuba] to its people.


The problem is that OFS's authorization included no metric for determining that the "when that is accomplished" bit actually applied, which (with the pay-as-you-go provisions) is what enabled the entire pernicious system.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by noblehunter   » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:17 pm

noblehunter
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Posts: 385
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So the MA may or may not have helped the Protectorate system turn particularly vile?

This is good context for how Maya sector got its deal with OFS and what the Talbott cluster was trying to do before the wormhole terminus was discovered.
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Re: OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by munroburton   » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:27 pm

munroburton
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It's important to remember that the Solarian League predates several key technologies/discoveries which had major effects upon it.

~925 PD – The Solarian League is founded.
1246 PD – Scientists on the planet Beowulf perfect the impeller drive. (HH1)
1273 PD – Adrienne Warshawski invents the Warshawski sail.
1384 PD – Dr. Shigematsu Radhakrishnan develops the inertial compensator.
1447 PD – The first wormhole junction is discovered.

I'm not quite sure when OFS or the bureaucracy at large started to go bad. A little after 1500-ish... perhaps when wormholes started to generate serious revenue? By that time, the lack of serious financial oversight had ossified, so nothing was in place to hold them accountable for spending decisions.

Another possible factor is around that time, Earth's recovery from the Final War was also considered completed. Those repair efforts gave the early League government focus and purpose - which then dissipated.
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Re: OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:29 am

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:How many of the Protectorates and provisional SL members provoked their forcible annexation by dabbling in piracy?


My first thought is that most of the Protectorates became Protectorates as the victims of pirates/raiders and if the weren't victims of pirates and raiders, FF and OFS would provide some raids and piracy to encourage a request for protection.

Of course, that would be the current situation, not the original situation--where FF and OFS were genuinely altruistic (if mercenary as regards imposing protectorate fees.) There has been a century or two worth of gradual changes in both the origins of Protectorates and FF/OFS policy and tactics. There's also been a substantial increase in the involvement of Trans-stellar corporations and complicity of FF/OFS with them.

The partitioning of Silesia by the Anderman Empire and Manticore is a possible analog of what FF and OFS started out as.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by runsforcelery   » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:51 am

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Weird Harold wrote:
The partitioning of Silesia by the Anderman Empire and Manticore is a possible analog of what FF and OFS started out as.



Actually, that would be both yes and no. Under the original writ of OFS, star systems in which OFS intervenes must remain sovereign and be restored to complete independence (or become member systems of the SL) as soon as practicable. That qualifier gave the later versions of OFS the loophole to retain de facto sovereignty of other people's star systems for as lone as they wished. All they needed as an inspector or ombudsman who would agree that it was not yet "practicable" to restore a system to full self-government. The situation was only made worse because the enabling legislation included no hard-and-fast definition of terms, which allowed generations of regulators to eventually work their way around --- by power of precedent --- to a position in which the fact that the system in question could not yet pay its legitimate debts (i.e., pay off its debt peonage fees to OFS) was evidence it was not yet capable of "standing on its own two feet" and hence must be kept in protected status just a little longer. But you'll be coming out of it Someday Real Soon now, promise!

The Andies and the Manties were both more pragmatic and more honest (and compassionate) than the final version of OFS. They'd both spent generations, lives, and a lot of treasure trying to maintain some sort of interstellar order in a region whose own "government" was a self-evident disaster: riddled with corruption, perpetually insolvent, and unable (and, worse, unwilling) to guarantee its own citizens safety. It was as if the SL's federal government had been treating its member systems the way OFS treated the Protectorates . . . only worse.

On top of this, there were diplomatic tensions between the AE and the SKM because the Andermani had clear territorial ambitions in Silesia and the SKM had long standing economic interests in the area. Ideally, the SKM wanted an independent Silesia where the rule of law actually worked. They didn't want that at the cost of seeing the entire Confederacy incorporated into the AE, when no one knew how that would work out economically (on the one hand) and it would bring the Andy frontier a hell of a lot closer to Manticore (on the other). Relations had been pretty good with the AE for a couple of three centuries, but there was that strand of expansionism in the Empire's DNA and the Junction did have to represent an awful tasty prize.

So pragmatism came into play when they both recognized the resurgent ROH as a threat and decided they needed to bury their differences in the face of a common enemy. Honesty came into play because, unlike OFS, they refused to pussyfoot around protesting that they would pull out of the Confederacy "as soon as practicable." And compassion came into play because both the AE and the SKM genuinely intended --- and proceeded to prove they did --- to restore interstellar order, put an end to the bloodshed and violence, improve standards or living enormously, and eventually incorporate their new possessions into their core political systems as full members. In the Andies' case, those new possessions didn't have any choice about that; in the Manties' case, those new possessions got to vote on it and could decide to become fully independent star systems if they chose. And unlike the OFS enabling legislation, the Act of Parliament which controlled the Silesian Partition set up hard and fast mileposts for the process, so there's no room for anyone to waffle or strain at any gnats.

So you're right that it ended up --- especially for the Manties --- coming far closer to the original intent behind OFS, but it was always up front and honest about the fact that the systems involved were almost certainly (without the "almost" in the Andies' case) going to be firmly incorporated into the empire/kingdom into whose hands they had fallen.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:57 am

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Arguing with Weber about diversity has inspired a question about OFS Protectorates.

Colonization requires more than just shipping people to a new world and star system. The colonists need tools and manufacturing infrastructure to sustain a minimal level technology base. It also requires a lot of people to sustain an advanced technology base. The more advanced a technology base is, the more people are required to sustain it. I would suggest that the minimum population needed to sustain a star faring civilization capable of bulding starships would be about 100 million people. Seed a system with a million colonists and they will need a century or two to get their population up to a level that can sustain their technology.

If your colony is below the minimum population threshold, you need to have brought enough tools and machinery with you to sustain your tech base until your population increases. Alternatively, you buy stuff. However, you can't buy unless you have something to sell.

If you have nothing to sell, may be you dabble in piracy?
Refit one of your colony ships as a raider or buy an obsolete frigate. Go to some other system where you steal a few cargo ships worth of machine tools or dismantle the orbital infrastructure to take home.

Raiding other small colonies similar to yourself is not so profitable so you find a more lucrative target. A SL system that doesn't have an SDF and no FF presence makes a tempting target. Pick a victim that is hundreds of LYs away so you can remain anonymous.

Worst case scenario is that you are recognized. Your victims call the SL. The SL calls the SLN,. BF can not be bothered so they send in FF. FF is eager to kick ass but calls in it's OFS buddies to enjoy the fun.

Your system has just become an OFS Protectorate.

How many of the Protectorates and provisional SL members provoked their forcible annexation by dabbling in piracy?


You mean how many forced their business venture to suffer a hostile takeover by a much bigger conglomerate of pirates? LOL Consider the outfit responsible for Case Buccaneer.

When entering into business, you must be mindful of stepping on the toes of the bigger players.

Your point is brilliant.

****** *

Late edit:

There are a dozen or so very notable pirates hailing from our histories. One of them is a woman. . .
Anne Bonny (Irish, 1700-1782)

Having traveled to the New World with her family, Anne fell in love and married a poor sailor named James Bonny. But when she grew increasingly disappointed by her husband’s lack of valor, she began seeking out the company of many different men in Nassau. Among these men, was “Calico Jack” Rackham, captain of a pirate ship. She joined his crew whilst acting and dressing like a man (including drinking and fighting profusely). Thus, she fought under his command, and along with fellow female pirate Mary Read, she coaxed the crew onto even greater bloodshed and violence and became a formidable pirate herself. However, she was captured with Rackham’s crew and sentenced to death. Both she and Mary Read claimed pregnancy in prison, and their death sentences weren’t carried out (but Mary had the misfortune of dying in prison). No one is sure how the famous female pirate died, though there is speculation that she returned home to her husband or her father.


I wonder if Honor recorded any female pirates in her personal diary.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:02 am

TFLYTSNBN

cthia wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Arguing with Weber about diversity has inspired a question about OFS Protectorates.

Colonization requires more than just shipping people to a new world and star system. The colonists need tools and manufacturing infrastructure to sustain a minimal level technology base. It also requires a lot of people to sustain an advanced technology base. The more advanced a technology base is, the more people are required to sustain it. I would suggest that the minimum population needed to sustain a star faring civilization capable of bulding starships would be about 100 million people. Seed a system with a million colonists and they will need a century or two to get their population up to a level that can sustain their technology.

If your colony is below the minimum population threshold, you need to have brought enough tools and machinery with you to sustain your tech base until your population increases. Alternatively, you buy stuff. However, you can't buy unless you have something to sell.

If you have nothing to sell, may be you dabble in piracy?
Refit one of your colony ships as a raider or buy an obsolete frigate. Go to some other system where you steal a few cargo ships worth of machine tools or dismantle the orbital infrastructure to take home.

Raiding other small colonies similar to yourself is not so profitable so you find a more lucrative target. A SL system that doesn't have an SDF and no FF presence makes a tempting target. Pick a victim that is hundreds of LYs away so you can remain anonymous.

Worst case scenario is that you are recognized. Your victims call the SL. The SL calls the SLN,. BF can not be bothered so they send in FF. FF is eager to kick ass but calls in it's OFS buddies to enjoy the fun.

Your system has just become an OFS Protectorate.

How many of the Protectorates and provisional SL members provoked their forcible annexation by dabbling in piracy?


You mean how many forced their business venture to suffer a hostile takeover by a much bigger conglomerate of pirates? LOL Consider the outfit responsible for Case Buccaneer.

When entering into business, you must be mindful of stepping on the toes of the bigger players.

Your point is brilliant.

****** *

Late edit:

There are a dozen or so very notable pirates hailing from our histories. One of them is a woman. . .
Anne Bonny (Irish, 1700-1782)

Having traveled to the New World with her family, Anne fell in love and married a poor sailor named James Bonny. But when she grew increasingly disappointed by her husband’s lack of valor, she began seeking out the company of many different men in Nassau. Among these men, was “Calico Jack” Rackham, captain of a pirate ship. She joined his crew whilst acting and dressing like a man (including drinking and fighting profusely). Thus, she fought under his command, and along with fellow female pirate Mary Read, she coaxed the crew onto even greater bloodshed and violence and became a formidable pirate herself. However, she was captured with Rackham’s crew and sentenced to death. Both she and Mary Read claimed pregnancy in prison, and their death sentences weren’t carried out (but Mary had the misfortune of dying in prison). No one is sure how the famous female pirate died, though there is speculation that she returned home to her husband or her father.


I wonder if Honor recorded any female pirates in her personal diary.


Behind every great man
There is a woman
With a whip.
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Re: OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:45 am

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Behind every great man
There is a woman
With a whip.


Behind every great man
There is a woman
rolling her eyes [as seen on a teeshirt] :-)
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Re: OFS Protectorates former pirates?
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:46 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

isaac_newton wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Behind every great man
There is a woman
With a whip.


Behind every great man
There is a woman
rolling her eyes [as seen on a teeshirt] :-)


My sister:
Behind every great man stands a woman kicking him in his ass to ensure it remains too sore for him to sit down on the job. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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