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Diversity within the Solarian League

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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:48 am

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Reply to RunsForCelery.

The SL will have few member systems with SDs or DNs.

However; it is very possible that many SL member systems have missile pods or forts deployed to guard critical infrastructure. Their motto is:

WHEN SECONDS COUNT, THE INVINCIBLE SOLARIAN LEAGUE NAVY IS MANY LIGHTYEARS AWAY.

These SL member systems that choose to deploy missile pods or forts will either be Technodyne customers or have some indigeneous production capacity.

Not being argumentative but your writings to date depict a Solarian League in which the ISLN does not deploy significant forces to defend individual member systems. Battle Fleet sits fat and happy in a few, fleet bases. Frontier Fleet isto busy subjurgating Shell Protectorates for exploitation to defend units to defend SL member systems.

The military posture of most SL core systems resmbles Silesia more than the SEM, Andermani AEmpire or Haven. Unless they have a significant SDF, they are totally reliant on BF for deterrence. Until the Haven wars, this was suffecient. One would think that a few would figure it out.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:57 pm

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why would they figure it out?

the core is quiet and very well off. most of the shell only a little less.

Piracy as opposed to slave running inside SL space is almost non existent. except when it is the SLN pretending to be pirates.

until buttercup not even the RMN was able to do any real damage to the unstoppable SLN.

now admittedly it has been roughly 8 years since then and that should have been enough time for any SDF paying attention to realise things have changed but you forget the Haven sector is a long way from most of those SDFs and they share the same attitude as the SLN intel. i..e "don't be ridiculous, if we can't do it a bunch neo-bards definitely can't" and they think that about FTL comm which has been in basic deployment for 2 decades let alone SD(P) which have been around less then half that time.

not invented here syndrome is rife thought the Leagues SDFs and SLN, with only a few exceptions. Beowulf, some of it close friends and those aligned with the MA.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:20 pm

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Dauntless wrote:now admittedly it has been roughly 8 years since then and that should have been enough time for any SDF paying attention to realise things have changed but you forget the Haven sector is a long way from most of those SDFs and they share the same attitude as the SLN intel. i..e "don't be ridiculous, if we can't do it a bunch neo-bards definitely can't" and they think that about FTL comm which has been in basic deployment for 2 decades let alone SD(P) which have been around less then half that time.


Actually, there is textev (in a couple of places, IIRC) that various SDFs sent observers to Haven and Manticore and reports of tech advances to SLN/ONI. Those reports were "round filed" because SDF observers were as easily impressed as neobarbs, not like the well-trained and experienced SLN desk jockeys.

It is implied in textev that Beowulf's SDs are better than SLN SDs, but it isn't clear whether that is because of subtly better tech or just better training and maintenance.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by Bill Woods   » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:16 pm

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Dauntless wrote:... now admittedly it has been roughly 8 years since then and that should have been enough time for any SDF paying attention to realise things have changed but you forget the Haven sector is a long way from most of those SDFs and they share the same attitude as the SLN intel. i..e "don't be ridiculous, if we can't do it a bunch neo-bards definitely can't" and they think that about FTL comm which has been in basic deployment for 2 decades let alone SD(P) which have been around less then half that time.
Manticore isn't really a long way away. It's only a day trip from Beowulf, which is only a week (or so?) away from Earth. Manticore is rich because it sits astride the shortcut from Beowulf to Joshua, and the shipping routes from the League to various large chunks of the hinterland. It ought to be at least as well-known as Singapore is on modern-day Earth.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:07 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Reply to RunsForCelery.

The SL will have few member systems with SDs or DNs.

However; it is very possible that many SL member systems have missile pods or forts deployed to guard critical infrastructure. Their motto is:

WHEN SECONDS COUNT, THE INVINCIBLE SOLARIAN LEAGUE NAVY IS MANY LIGHTYEARS AWAY.

These SL member systems that choose to deploy missile pods or forts will either be Technodyne customers or have some indigeneous production capacity.

Not being argumentative but your writings to date depict a Solarian League in which the ISLN does not deploy significant forces to defend individual member systems. Battle Fleet sits fat and happy in a few, fleet bases. Frontier Fleet isto busy subjurgating Shell Protectorates for exploitation to defend units to defend SL member systems.

The military posture of most SL core systems resmbles Silesia more than the SEM, Andermani AEmpire or Haven. Unless they have a significant SDF, they are totally reliant on BF for deterrence. Until the Haven wars, this was suffecient. One would think that a few would figure it out.


Why did it become insufficient because of the Havenite Wars? The League was still the League, and aside from the MWJ, the Haven Quadrant was still hundreds of light-years from the core, and deterrence depended not on the battle squadron parked in your system but in the scores of battle squadrons which come and kick the living daylights out of anyone who threatened an SL member system with significant force. You need
locale SAR and anti-pirate patrols (maybe), and for most anything else, you don't need a navy at all under the paradigm which has governed the explored galaxy literally for centuries. For almost any SL member system, a battle squadron would be a hole in space you poured money into and which served absolutely no useful purpose. And the Havenite Wars didn't change that in any way because they posed exactly zero threat to any SL territory, star system, or citizen.

The State of California doesn't feel any need to keep a CVN and a few Arleigh Burke's homeported in San Diego under the state flag because China might suddenly attack the harbor. Same thing for member systems of the SLN pre the . . . unfortunate events beginning with Byng's terminal stupidity.

Some --- some --- of the more paranoid member systems may have felt a need to stock up on missile pods and weapons platforms. Most of them? No way. If there were any significant long term potential threat to a member system, there would be a battle squadron parked in it. And that battle squadron would be the tripwire for unleashing the entire SLN on the threat if it stopped being "potential."

And before the Manties and the Havenites completely altered the way wars were fought, that was all the member systems ever needed. I don't believe a single thing I've ever told you about the Solarian League should suggest any other state of affairs.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:49 pm

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Some --- some --- of the more paranoid member systems may have felt a need to stock up on missile pods and weapons platforms. Most of them? No way.




My thoughts exactly. Most SL members forting up, no way.
A few "paranoid" SL systems forting up, yes.

Keep in mind that the paradigm for warfare in your Honorverse is different than for current Earth. Interdiction is impossible because ships in hyperspace seldom encounter each other except near star systems. Strategic depth is not irrellevant, but attacking from hundreds of LYs or even 1,000s is very pkausible. This is how the PRHN was able to attack Honor Harrington's forces in War of Honor. Neither the RMN or the AEN detected them until they were dropping out of hyper.

There is nothing except deterrence to prevent some force from sneaking into the SL core to ream some SL system.

Deterrence?
Detterence only works if you can identify the attacker. The SLN casully dismisses your SDFs and merchant ships observations of SD(P)s that can launch thousands of MDMs to wage battles from ranges of light minutes or that LACs can ream SDs a new orifice. After observing that the invincible SLN is sufferring from a cranial rectal insertion, you just might hedge your bets. Soet of like buying a gun when you live in a City like Chicago where homicides are almost never snolved.

runsforcelery wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Reply to RunsForCelery.

The SL will have few member systems with SDs or DNs.

However; it is very possible that many SL member systems have missile pods or forts deployed to guard critical infrastructure. Their motto is:

WHEN SECONDS COUNT, THE INVINCIBLE SOLARIAN LEAGUE NAVY IS MANY LIGHTYEARS AWAY.

These SL member systems that choose to deploy missile pods or forts will either be Technodyne customers or have some indigeneous production capacity.

Not being argumentative but your writings to date depict a Solarian League in which the ISLN does not deploy significant forces to defend individual member systems. Battle Fleet sits fat and happy in a few, fleet bases. Frontier Fleet isto busy subjurgating Shell Protectorates for exploitation to defend units to defend SL member systems.

The military posture of most SL core systems resmbles Silesia more than the SEM, Andermani AEmpire or Haven. Unless they have a significant SDF, they are totally reliant on BF for deterrence. Until the Haven wars, this was suffecient. One would think that a few would figure it out.


Why did it become insufficient because of the Havenite Wars? The League was still the League, and aside from the MWJ, the Haven Quadrant was still hundreds of light-years from the core, and deterrence depended not on the battle squadron parked in your system but in the scores of battle squadrons which come and kick the living daylights out of anyone who threatened an SL member system with significant force. You need
locale SAR and anti-pirate patrols (maybe), and for most anything else, you don't need a navy at all under the paradigm which has governed the explored galaxy literally for centuries. For almost any SL member system, a battle squadron would be a hole in space you poured money into and which served absolutely no useful purpose. And the Havenite Wars didn't change that in any way because they posed exactly zero threat to any SL territory, star system, or citizen.

The State of California doesn't feel any need to keep a CVN and a few Arleigh Burke's homeported in San Diego under the state flag because China might suddenly attack the harbor. Same thing for member systems of the SLN pre the . . . unfortunate events beginning with Byng's terminal stupidity.

Some --- some --- of the more paranoid member systems may have felt a need to stock up on missile pods and weapons platforms. Most of them? No way. If there were any significant long term potential threat to a member system, there would be a battle squadron parked in it. And that battle squadron would be the tripwire for unleashing the entire SLN on the threat if it stopped being "potential."

And before the Manties and the Havenites completely altered the way wars were fought, that was all the member systems ever needed. I don't believe a single thing I've ever told you about the Solarian League should suggest any other state of affairs.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by kzt   » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:36 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Keep in mind that the paradigm for warfare in your Honorverse is different than for current Earth. Interdiction is impossible because ships in hyperspace seldom encounter each other except near star systems. Strategic depth is not irrellevant, but attacking from hundreds of LYs or even 1,000s is very pkausible. This is how the PRHN was able to attack Honor Harrington's forces in War of Honor. Neither the RMN or the AEN detected them until they were dropping out of hyper.

There is nothing except deterrence to prevent some force from sneaking into the SL core to ream some SL system.

Actually, that isn’t true until deep in the second war.

The perceived need for fairly close support bases is why tSVW didn’t open with 400 peep SDs and 300 BBs crossing the wall at Manticore A. The End.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:11 pm

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kzt wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Keep in mind that the paradigm for warfare in your Honorverse is different than for current Earth. Interdiction is impossible because ships in hyperspace seldom encounter each other except near star systems. Strategic depth is not irrellevant, but attacking from hundreds of LYs or even 1,000s is very pkausible. This is how the PRHN was able to attack Honor Harrington's forces in War of Honor. Neither the RMN or the AEN detected them until they were dropping out of hyper.

There is nothing except deterrence to prevent some force from sneaking into the SL core to ream some SL system.

Actually, that isn’t true until deep in the second war.

The perceived need for fairly close support bases is why tSVW didn’t open with 400 peep SDs and 300 BBs crossing the wall at Manticore A. The End.


For that matter, but tSVW and HAE have engagements in hyper. In both cases they were there to interdict specific targets. And in both cases their positioning was relative to grav-waves, not planetary systems. granted they may be edge cases, but they refute "Interdiction is impossible."
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by tjthw8s   » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:33 pm

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Kael wrote:


For that matter, but tSVW and HAE have engagements in hyper. In both cases they were there to interdict specific targets. And in both cases their positioning was relative to grav-waves, not planetary systems. granted they may be edge cases, but they refute "Interdiction is impossible."[/quote]

---v



Change that from 'impossible' to 'unlikely'. Probability has no favourites. Sensor conditions in hyper, being far more restrictive than N-space, necessitate a much smaller window of opportunity.

Deep-strike evolved in part as a response to Manticore's strategic and tactical limitations. They had a smallish force available for offensive operations (after defence commitments were seen to) and they had to plan attacks that allowed for the biggest bang for the buck. So they chose targets based on several factors ; potential impact to the war effort , expected on-site defences , and likelihood of interception en route to target . "Calculated risks" were taken.

I inferred that at least part of the planning where 'interception' was concerned was that the routes chosen would NOT involve the standard merchant travel routes or even the traditionally used hyperspace BANDS in an effort to minimize that likelihood. And I suspect that the attacking task force went as far as moving around the periphery of the target system before emerging from a vector that wasn't expected.

I mean, textev is that most merchants tend to travel no higher than the mid-Delta bands and that military forces routinely use the upper Epsilon bands.

So if you want to intercept mercies, stake out the mid-Deltas. That's where they're most likely to be found.

And any attackers are likely to be arriving from the upper Epsilon (if you bother with hyperspace watch [i.e. an actual patrol ship] on top of your N-space watch on Alpha transition).

So an attacking force would take care to show up, maybe from the LOWER Epsilon on a vector that wasn't least-time closest approach from grav wave X, even after using wave X to get close. That's you have a PERIMITER defence after all. But no one is 100% vigilant 100% of the time. And your defence forces may be out of position to intercept even when you spot the incoming.

I also inferred that Manticore's initial strikes proved more effective than they had anticipated, so they ramped up the pace.

Voila, fresh tactic that supersedes "the way things are done".

Remember the axiom that the military usually prepares to fight the LAST war (point to the massive casualties in WW1 from trying to storm machine gun nests)
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:25 pm

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Based on what we have seen over the long arch of the books, there are at least two compelling reasons why Beowulf has such a large SDF. These do not count Beowulf's own commerce protection for it's merchant marine and thoses ships from other systems (SLN or not) comming into the trade routes it patrols and secures. Nor does it count the Beowulf Biological Survey in it's operations and use as a Special Forces/Commando extension of Beowulf's various foreign policy and self protection.

The 1st and 2nd both directly driven by Haven and the Sigma Draconis Terminus of the Manticore Junction.

Not only has Manticore "been in the way of" PRH's expansion and forcible aquistion of systems to feed Haven's ongoing and increasing economic crisis brought on by the whole Dole system, the Junction (and so Beowulf's connection to it) is an almost incalculable prize for Haven.

There are two primary ways this hits Beowulf beyond the probable changes that Haven would make to Beowulf's direct share of transit fees. One would be that Haven, should it take Manticore as one of it's conquests, would not only control the Junction, but all the trade represented by the Junction to and from the SL. The political and economic impact of that on Beowulf would be significant in of itself.

What became way beyond possible since the events with Honnor Harrington at Basilisk was that Haven would move against the Sigma Draconis Terminus to take and hold that end of the wormhole and control the primary SL/Haven Quadrant wormhole route. Should Haven move aginst that end of the terminus and Beowulf NOT be able to hold it, they may or may not be able to interest the SL (and the SLN) in comming in to recover the terminus without a lot of extra costs. Based on the behavior of the Mandarins and OFS, even when the SLN would dispatch forces to kick a PRH fleet off the terminus, there would be the SLN in control with OFS wanting to secure and maintain the controls- in the name of Beowulf of course- for the safety and economic interest of the SL.
If Beowulf has to call for SLN to retrieve this signicant asset, the cost is going to be the control of the terminus and corresponding loss of power, prestige and their own control/security. OFS is unlikely to be able to throw a net over Beowulf but they will hold onto the terminus since Beowulf obviously can't be capable of holding it.

The other is that not only does Beowulf have major military and economic treaties with Manticore, it also has a very close relationship on a very human level with centuries of intermarriage between system's populations. Manticore is not a daughter colony of Beowulf but from many perspectives (personal relationships, governmental relationships, political (High Ridge aside) philosophy, business relationships, anti-slavery, and common core values in medial, business, and moral ethics.

We haven't seen any direct mention of military treaties requireing Beowulf to come to the aid of Manticore (which would of nessissity have to come through the Junction) but it is quite possible that a provision is that Beowulf maintain a force sufficent to defend and secure the Sigma Draconis Terminus which would leave Manticore free to not station a fleet at that end of the wormhole. While Beowulf might not keep a massive presence where it could be seen right at the terminus, it would keep what ever number and force of ships closely available to defend or possibly retake it given the decades long growing problem with Haven.

Beowulf is under no illusions of the cost of needing to call on the SLN to recover the terminus would be. It is unlikely that Haven would strike directly at the Beowulf SYSTEM - given that would be a tripwire for the SLN to come in for the defense and recovery of a Core Member- but the loss of the terminus, particularly if it came by the Manticore System's fall to haven and the Junction then being the spoils of war- but Beowulf would have to be able to hang onto it's end of the terminus even if the other side of the partnership corporation running it become Haven.

So, yeah, Beowulf needs a major "SDF" because it has to secure and maintain control of the primary trade link with the Haven Quadrant.
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