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Diversity within the Solarian League

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Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:24 pm

TFLYTSNBN
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We keep forgetting that the SL is NOT a monolithic entity. The SL consists of over 1,000 star systems (or multiple system polities?) as well as Transstellar corporations such as Technodyne. There are 100s of systems with a basic technology base and economic capacity comparable to Manticore. As Honor predicted, the GA's current military superiority can not in the long run enable a hundred or so star systems to defeat 1,000+.

While the individual systems are members of the SL, they enjoy enormous autonomy. I would wager that their internal political systems vary from democracy to theocracy and totalitarianism. Some SL member systems might welcome the dissolution of the SL to enable conquest but have been afraid to try.

This autonymy includes the right to retain their own System Defense Forces. Most probably buy used ships from the SLN or knock offs from the same suppliers. Some buy "export models"`from Technodyne which might be superior to the designs that the SLN prefers. Others build their own. As a result, there are SDFs that have been monitoring the brushfire war in the Haven Sector more carefully than the SLN. Some of them may have gotten nervous enough to start upgrading their SDFs. Technodyne has been all to happy to help them, either with outright sales or selling licenses to produce. While BCs and SDs are available, system defense pods might be a more economically and politically palatable option.

The bottom line is that there might have been dozens of SLN member systems with production lines for advanced missiles and pods up and running before the battle of New Tuscany. Shipping off missiles and pods to rearm the SLN might be their preferred strategy. They would prefer to remain anonymous. This avoids provoking Eigth Fleet to pay a visit to their home system.

The bottom line here is that the SLN might be receiving informal and voluntary subsidies from more than a few member systems that allieviate the economic problems. IOUs are being issued and will be repayed in the future.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:33 pm

ldwechsler
Commodore

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:We keep forgetting that the SL is NOT a monolithic entity. The SL consists of over 1,000 star systems (or multiple system polities?) as well as Transstellar corporations such as Technodyne. There are 100s of systems with a basic technology base and economic capacity comparable to Manticore. As Honor predicted, the GA's current military superiority can not in the long run enable a hundred or so star systems to defeat 1,000+.

While the individual systems are members of the SL, they enjoy enormous autonomy. I would wager that their internal political systems vary from democracy to theocracy and totalitarianism. Some SL member systems might welcome the dissolution of the SL to enable conquest but have been afraid to try.

This autonymy includes the right to retain their own System Defense Forces. Most probably buy used ships from the SLN or knock offs from the same suppliers. Some buy "export models"`from Technodyne which might be superior to the designs that the SLN prefers. Others build their own. As a result, there are SDFs that have been monitoring the brushfire war in the Haven Sector more carefully than the SLN. Some of them may have gotten nervous enough to start upgrading their SDFs. Technodyne has been all to happy to help them, either with outright sales or selling licenses to produce. While BCs and SDs are available, system defense pods might be a more economically and politically palatable option.

The bottom line is that there might have been dozens of SLN member systems with production lines for advanced missiles and pods up and running before the battle of New Tuscany. Shipping off missiles and pods to rearm the SLN might be their preferred strategy. They would prefer to remain anonymous. This avoids provoking Eigth Fleet to pay a visit to their home system.

The bottom line here is that the SLN might be receiving informal and voluntary subsidies from more than a few member systems that allieviate the economic problems. IOUs are being issued and will be repayed in the future.


I think you're overestimating the value of the more local ships. It is unlikely they'd be better than the Sollie ships. Note that the Solarians do keep an eye on things. The Mayans had to work to keep secrets and they had Erewhon.

Yes, The Malign will have better ships but I would doubt it happens all that much. And I think most clusters would really want to keep their own warships really close.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by pappilon   » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:07 am

pappilon
Rear Admiral

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ldwechsler wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:We keep forgetting that the SL is NOT a monolithic entity. The SL consists of over 1,000 star systems (or multiple system polities?) as well as Transstellar corporations such as Technodyne. There are 100s of systems with a basic technology base and economic capacity comparable to Manticore. As Honor predicted, the GA's current military superiority can not in the long run enable a hundred or so star systems to defeat 1,000+.

While the individual systems are members of the SL, they enjoy enormous autonomy. I would wager that their internal political systems vary from democracy to theocracy and totalitarianism. Some SL member systems might welcome the dissolution of the SL to enable conquest but have been afraid to try.

This autonymy includes the right to retain their own System Defense Forces. Most probably buy used ships from the SLN or knock offs from the same suppliers. Some buy "export models"`from Technodyne which might be superior to the designs that the SLN prefers. Others build their own. As a result, there are SDFs that have been monitoring the brushfire war in the Haven Sector more carefully than the SLN. Some of them may have gotten nervous enough to start upgrading their SDFs. Technodyne has been all to happy to help them, either with outright sales or selling licenses to produce. While BCs and SDs are available, system defense pods might be a more economically and politically palatable option.

The bottom line is that there might have been dozens of SLN member systems with production lines for advanced missiles and pods up and running before the battle of New Tuscany. Shipping off missiles and pods to rearm the SLN might be their preferred strategy. They would prefer to remain anonymous. This avoids provoking Eigth Fleet to pay a visit to their home system.

The bottom line here is that the SLN might be receiving informal and voluntary subsidies from more than a few member systems that allieviate the economic problems. IOUs are being issued and will be repayed in the future.


I think you're overestimating the value of the more local ships. It is unlikely they'd be better than the Sollie ships. Note that the Solarians do keep an eye on things. The Mayans had to work to keep secrets and they had Erewhon.

Yes, The Malign will have better ships but I would doubt it happens all that much. And I think most clusters would really want to keep their own warships really close.


It ALL starts with Doctrine. What is the purpose/role of a System Defense Force? W#hat mix of classes of ships do they need to meet their missions?

DNs SDs? nope, not even a BC. Who do they have to defend their system from? The 800 Kilo gorilla is on their side, that leaves the odd pirate with a death wish or a neighbor with delusions of grandeur. And only the core worlds closest to the shell would even be concerned with an SDF.

Why would you even try to develop ships and weapon systems better than the best? Yes, even outside the Kuipper Belt that share Solly Arrogance.

Of course there is Maya and the Renaissance Factor [Malign] Who were actually paying attention. But I doubt there is much to be found that wasn't scooped up at Ganymede.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by Maldorian   » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:53 am

Maldorian
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You shouldn´t forget, that weapons trade is always political. I guess, that some solarian navies only exist to keep their local weapon manufactor alive.

A new enemy, new weapons tec and new tactics are very good excuses for the politicans to give the weapon intustry some money to develope new weapons for you.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:17 pm

TFLYTSNBN
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

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In addition to having a moderately powerful SDF, a hypothetical SLN core world has merchant ships. Merchies dont have great sensors that can detect impeller drives under stealth. However; a moderately good pair of binoculars would enable a merchie Captain to observe the detonation of thousands of missile warheads as oppossing fleets exchange missile fire from ranges measured in tens of millions of kilometers. It would not require a genius to deduce that Manticore and Haven have developed very long range missiles and some means to lauch them in enormous volleys from ships that are accellerating at 500+ gees.

The SLN might dismiss such reports as fantasy. Your home SDF might be less sanguine. After having the SLN repeatedly dismiss such reports as not credible, the SDF might loose confidence in the ability or willingness of the SLN to protect them. (Yes you have a sheriff. But your sheriff is packing his trusty muzzle loading, black powder revolver that can rarely hit the target beyond arange of 25 yards. The barbarians are shooting at each other with .50 caliber BMG from 1,000 yards apart. Do you still trust your sheriff to protect you?
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by Vince   » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:05 pm

Vince
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pappilon wrote:It ALL starts with Doctrine. What is the purpose/role of a System Defense Force? W#hat mix of classes of ships do they need to meet their missions?

DNs SDs? nope, not even a BC. Who do they have to defend their system from? The 800 Kilo gorilla is on their side, that leaves the odd pirate with a death wish or a neighbor with delusions of grandeur. And only the core worlds closest to the shell would even be concerned with an SDF.

Why would you even try to develop ships and weapon systems better than the best? Yes, even outside the Kuipper Belt that share Solly Arrogance.

Of course there is Maya and the Renaissance Factor [Malign] Who were actually paying attention. But I doubt there is much to be found that wasn't scooped up at Ganymede.

Actually, it doesn't start with doctrine. Doctrine is how you go about accomplishing your goal(s).

It starts with MISSION. What is(are) the mission(s) for the SDF(s)?
House of Steel, The Honorverse Companion, Afterword, Building a Navy in the Honorverse, David Weber and Christopher Weuve wrote:Introduction
Building a navy is a complicated endeavor, whether one is bending steel or turning phrases. Doing it right depends on understanding a set of key parameters that will define the structure of the navy. These parameters can be broken into six major areas:

1. Strategic Assumptions
2. Strategic Goals
3. Fleet Missions
4. Fleet Design
5. Force Size
6. Force Management

Each of these major categories builds on the one preceding it; conversely, a failure at a later step may require rethinking earlier steps, because sometimes “you can’t get there from here.” Each of these areas can be broken down into sub-topics.
By answering the questions implicit in all of these topics, you can define a navy. In this essay, David Weber teams up with a naval analyst formerly on the faculty of the US Naval War College to do just that.
The essay goes on in depth for 20 more pages.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:44 pm

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Vince wrote:
pappilon wrote:It ALL starts with Doctrine. What is the purpose/role of a System Defense Force? W#hat mix of classes of ships do they need to meet their missions?

Actually, it doesn't start with doctrine. Doctrine is how you go about accomplishing your goal(s).

It starts with MISSION. What is(are) the mission(s) for the SDF(s)?
Start with Coast Guard-y stuff: in-system search-and-rescue, and customs inspection.
Then, that odd pirate is attacking our shipping?
Then, that uppity system lord is trying to invade our system??
...
... the whole SLN has gone rogue???
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by kzt   » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:26 am

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The first issue in building a military is deciding why you want one. It doesn't just happen, there is always a reason.

It's not unlikely that some systems have a navy with hyper-capable warships because that's the mark of a successful system according to the people who run it or the people who vote for them. And that's OK.

Then you have to decide either the mission or how much you are willing to spend.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:36 am

TFLYTSNBN
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:58 am

kzt wrote:The first issue in building a military is deciding why you want one. It doesn't just happen, there is always a reason.

It's not unlikely that some systems have a navy with hyper-capable warships because that's the mark of a successful system according to the people who run it or the people who vote for them. And that's OK.

Then you have to decide either the mission or how much you are willing to spend.



I would remind everyone that Beawulf has a powerful SDF that includes a significant number of SDs. Why?

While members of the SL might take comfort in the belief that the SLN protects them, it appears that the SLN does not deploy squadrons of DNs and SDs to protect member systems. The SLN does not have enough DNs and SDs to deploy significant forces to all systems. The SLN keeps keeps its capital ships concentrated in only a few bases to react to any attack on a member system. The SLN is a deterrent force rather than a defensive force.

A SL member system might presume that the SLN is such a powerful deterrent that they have no need to defend themselves. However; just as a US citizen might choose to own guns to defend themselves rather than rely on the police, SL systems might choose to possess a significant SDF to protect themselves. The decision to possess an SDF will be governed by ego but also a honest appraisal of the credibility of the SLN as a deterrent.

Given this reality, any SL system that has observed the corruption in Frontier Fleet and the evolution of military hardware in the Haven sector wars will have serious doubts about the credibility of the SLN as a deterrent. Some systems chose to acquire significant SDFs. (Now that the malignment has been exposed, many SL systems will field significant SDFs.)

The bottom line is that there are some SL members with significant SDFs that also have more modern ships than the SLN. These systems might choose to offer material support to the SLN to enhance their security.
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Re: Diversity within the Solarian League
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:53 am

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Location: South Carolina

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
kzt wrote:The first issue in building a military is deciding why you want one. It doesn't just happen, there is always a reason.

It's not unlikely that some systems have a navy with hyper-capable warships because that's the mark of a successful system according to the people who run it or the people who vote for them. And that's OK.

Then you have to decide either the mission or how much you are willing to spend.



I would remind everyone that Beawulf has a powerful SDF that includes a significant number of SDs. Why?

While members of the SL might take comfort in the belief that the SLN protects them, it appears that the SLN does not deploy squadrons of DNs and SDs to protect member systems. The SLN does not have enough DNs and SDs to deploy significant forces to all systems. The SLN keeps keeps its capital ships concentrated in only a few bases to react to any attack on a member system. The SLN is a deterrent force rather than a defensive force.

A SL member system might presume that the SLN is such a powerful deterrent that they have no need to defend themselves. However; just as a US citizen might choose to own guns to defend themselves rather than rely on the police, SL systems might choose to possess a significant SDF to protect themselves. The decision to possess an SDF will be governed by ego but also a honest appraisal of the credibility of the SLN as a deterrent.

Given this reality, any SL system that has observed the corruption in Frontier Fleet and the evolution of military hardware in the Haven sector wars will have serious doubts about the credibility of the SLN as a deterrent. Some systems chose to acquire significant SDFs. (Now that the malignment has been exposed, many SL systems will field significant SDFs.)

The bottom line is that there are some SL members with significant SDFs that also have more modern ships than the SLN. These systems might choose to offer material support to the SLN to enhance their security.



Beowulf is a special case because of its terminus to the Junction. It has a longstanding mutual defense obligation with Manticore that requires a certain amount of firepower on its part, and that treaty was never abrogated.

It was also conveniently ignored by both sides in the confrontation leading up to Raging Justice . . . at least until Truman announced her presence. The SLN sure as hell didn't want to remind Beowulf that Beowulf had an interstellar obligation to defend the terminus against all comers (including the SLN) when it could make this a matter of the Federal authority overriding system sovereignty, especially for a terminus outside the member system's territorial limit. Beowulf didn't want to make it a matter of "if you try to go through we will shoot you because we are allied to your enemies" unless it had to, which was why their System Defense Force tried so hard to get the SLN to stand down without ever mentioning that Truman was present.

Obviously, it didn't work out that way.

There are only a very, very small number of SDFs out there which have any wallers, and even most that do don't have very many of them at all because, frankly, unless you're in Beowulf's position, there is no need for them as long as the Invincible Solarian Navy is responsible for your defense. You'll find a lot more cruisers (and even some battlecruisers) for systems with major commercial interests that extend into places like Slesia, where the SLN ventures not and you take your own security with you, but they are excruciatingly few and far between. The vast bulk of SDFs are actually local police forces, with relatively small units to help manage shipping and handle SAR. You'll see a lot of LACs, but even more very small hyper-capable units because of the possibility that they will have to respond to something outside the hyper limit in a hurry. What you will not see, by and large, is anything even remotely like a battle fleet. Indeed, those you see that have any real combat power at all will tend to be located in the Shell (and probably its outer reaches, at that) where response time by even Frontier Fleet is likely to be a factor in the thinking of the local system authorities.

That's essentially the case with Mannerheim, with the added factor that Mannerheim was not a member of the SL and thus could not rely on the ISLN to defend it. Very few SL member systems would have that factor driving their naval spending.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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