Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], kzt, saber964 and 15 guests

Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by Randomiser   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:57 am

Randomiser
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1304
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: Scotland

Garth 2 wrote:Love the snippets, but haven't read the EARc (waiting for the final book) but... when did the SL confirm that a state of war existed between the SL and the Grand Alliance?


I know Honor totalled Flairatta (spelling) that a defacto state of war existed when he didn't back down, but surely the SL goverment would still need to confirm the status...


Also, if it is an illegal order the Flag Captian should be sending her marines to take the admiral in to custody


And if a state of war does existed, then the SEM/RMN units have full rights to engage any SL/SLN unit they in counter via any means ("The Manties struck from ambush", just shows that the SLN failed to ensure that its operational area was secure)


I think Gogunov is just frothing at the mouth and hence coming out with inconsistent statements, as you point out. IIRC the SL needs a vote of their elected assembly/parliament to actually declare war. Since this has to be unanimous, every system represented having a veto, they are never going to get it passed. The Admiral knows full well there is a de-facto war going on, but legally they are not at war at this point, to the best of my understanding anyway. If I've missed something, no doubt someone will point it out.
Top
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by n7axw   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:21 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Randomiser wrote:
Garth 2 wrote:Love the snippets, but haven't read the EARc (waiting for the final book) but... when did the SL confirm that a state of war existed between the SL and the Grand Alliance?


I know Honor totalled Flairatta (spelling) that a defacto state of war existed when he didn't back down, but surely the SL goverment would still need to confirm the status...


Also, if it is an illegal order the Flag Captian should be sending her marines to take the admiral in to custody


And if a state of war does existed, then the SEM/RMN units have full rights to engage any SL/SLN unit they in counter via any means ("The Manties struck from ambush", just shows that the SLN failed to ensure that its operational area was secure)


I think Gogunov is just frothing at the mouth and hence coming out with inconsistent statements, as you point out. IIRC the SL needs a vote of their elected assembly/parliament to actually declare war. Since this has to be unanimous, every system represented having a veto, they are never going to get it passed. The Admiral knows full well there is a de-facto war going on, but legally they are not at war at this point, to the best of my understanding anyway. If I've missed something, no doubt someone will point it out.


Not completely de facto. Manticore declared war. IIRC, Manticore made it official after the SLN attack on her home system. So the League is at war, officially recognized or not,

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by Bill Woods   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:55 pm

Bill Woods
Captain of the List

Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:39 pm

runsforcelery wrote: “Sir,” Commodore Ham reported, “the numbers are preliminary, but it looks like about two thousand birds aboard the battlecruisers. You were right about the damage. We’ve lost at least one magazine each aboard five of the ships that are still combat effective. I’ll need at least five or six minutes to sort out a new queue for Buccaneer.”

“Well, two thousand should be enough to do the job,” Gogunov said. “Go ahead and start setting it up now.”
Hajdu had unloaded 20k pods to "do the job" — was that massive overkill, or is Gogunov redefining success down? Or some of both.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
Top
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by Garth 2   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:42 am

Garth 2
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:04 am

n7axw wrote:Love the snippets, but haven't read the EARc (waiting for the final book) but... when did the SL confirm that a state of war existed between the SL and the Grand Alliance?


I know Honor totalled Flairatta (spelling) that a defacto state of war existed when he didn't back down, but surely the SL goverment would still need to confirm the status...


Also, if it is an illegal order the Flag Captian should be sending her marines to take the admiral in to custody


And if a state of war does existed, then the SEM/RMN units have full rights to engage any SL/SLN unit they in counter via any means ("The Manties struck from ambush", just shows that the SLN failed to ensure that its operational area was secure)
------
I think Gogunov is just frothing at the mouth and hence coming out with inconsistent statements, as you point out. IIRC the SL needs a vote of their elected assembly/parliament to actually declare war. Since this has to be unanimous, every system represented having a veto, they are never going to get it passed. The Admiral knows full well there is a de-facto war going on, but legally they are not at war at this point, to the best of my understanding anyway. If I've missed something, no doubt someone will point it out.
Not completely de facto. Manticore declared war. IIRC, Manticore made it official after the SLN attack on her home system. So the League is at war, officially recognized or not,

Don

-


To take an example from WW2, after the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbour; the USA congress still had to meet, a declaration put forward and voted on - given that a member of congress voted against it - it could be theoretically possible for the USA not to have entered into the war (though unlikely).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... r_on_Japan

Therefore the same limitations must apply to the SL goverment, (an in universe example, would also be the first Haven-Manitcore war, the Manticore Parliment "dragged its heels" over declaring war restirciting the RMN to operational capability during the open phases).
Top
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:12 am

Kael Posavatz
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:51 am

Garth 2 wrote:
n7axw wrote:Love the snippets, but haven't read the EARc (waiting for the final book) but... when did the SL confirm that a state of war existed between the SL and the Grand Alliance?


I know Honor totalled Flairatta (spelling) that a defacto state of war existed when he didn't back down, but surely the SL goverment would still need to confirm the status...


Also, if it is an illegal order the Flag Captian should be sending her marines to take the admiral in to custody


And if a state of war does existed, then the SEM/RMN units have full rights to engage any SL/SLN unit they in counter via any means ("The Manties struck from ambush", just shows that the SLN failed to ensure that its operational area was secure)
------
I think Gogunov is just frothing at the mouth and hence coming out with inconsistent statements, as you point out. IIRC the SL needs a vote of their elected assembly/parliament to actually declare war. Since this has to be unanimous, every system represented having a veto, they are never going to get it passed. The Admiral knows full well there is a de-facto war going on, but legally they are not at war at this point, to the best of my understanding anyway. If I've missed something, no doubt someone will point it out.
Not completely de facto. Manticore declared war. IIRC, Manticore made it official after the SLN attack on her home system. So the League is at war, officially recognized or not,

Don

-


To take an example from WW2, after the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbour; the USA congress still had to meet, a declaration put forward and voted on - given that a member of congress voted against it - it could be theoretically possible for the USA not to have entered into the war (though unlikely).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... r_on_Japan

Therefore the same limitations must apply to the SL goverment, (an in universe example, would also be the first Haven-Manitcore war, the Manticore Parliment "dragged its heels" over declaring war restirciting the RMN to operational capability during the open phases).


Why would the same limitations apply?

Using the same rationale the US hasn't been in a 'war' since WWII. And yet, a state that is close enough in resemblance to war has existed at multiple points in time since that pretty much everyone calls them 'wars.' There has probably been one person since Truman has in all seriousness referred to Korea as a 'police action,' but I would not want to wager on there being two.

As a practical matter, whatever limitations exist, exist only so long as a political entity either A) holds itself to whatever standards it has set, or B) finds it convenient to do so.

Manticore is a case of the former (I'm sure that Elizabeth would have found it enormously 'convenient' to ignore parliament's dithering over the initial declaration of war against the People's Republic of Haven). The Mandarins and League Navy are a case of the latter (not SL as a whole, the distinction, I think, is rather important).

I don't have ART in front of me, but I recall a discussion about a legal article that allows the SLN to commit combat forces in face of 'imminent threat' or something similar without obtaining a declaration of war owing to League's size, travel times, need for commanders to be able to defend themselves, etc.
Top
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by Theemile   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:13 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3196
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

Kael Posavatz wrote:
Why would the same limitations apply?

Using the same rationale the US hasn't been in a 'war' since WWII. And yet, a state that is close enough in resemblance to war has existed at multiple points in time since that pretty much everyone calls them 'wars.' There has probably been one person since Truman has in all seriousness referred to Korea as a 'police action,' but I would not want to wager on there being two.

As a practical matter, whatever limitations exist, exist only so long as a political entity either A) holds itself to whatever standards it has set, or B) finds it convenient to do so.

Manticore is a case of the former (I'm sure that Elizabeth would have found it enormously 'convenient' to ignore parliament's dithering over the initial declaration of war against the People's Republic of Haven). The Mandarins and League Navy are a case of the latter (not SL as a whole, the distinction, I think, is rather important).

I don't have ART in front of me, but I recall a discussion about a legal article that allows the SLN to commit combat forces in face of 'imminent threat' or something similar without obtaining a declaration of war owing to League's size, travel times, need for commanders to be able to defend themselves, etc.



In the US, the President has the ability to use the US armed forces for 90 days in a conflict, before he has to ask Congress for a declaration of war.

But, he can only deploy what the armed forces already has or has the money to purchase. He cannot hire more than the previously allotted # of soldiers, he can't buy new tanks, he cannot buy more gas or bullets. He cannot call up any reserves, or State guards forces not already assigned to federal work.

This is what a declaration of war means: $, recruitment, procurement, and power to pull up reserves and regional guard forces.

Without it, you have your normal ops budget, and your normal forces. Small issues you can deal with and react to. Large ones, you can start the wheels moving, then you need the declaration to do more.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:08 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2215
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Theemile wrote:
Kael Posavatz wrote:
Why would the same limitations apply?

Using the same rationale the US hasn't been in a 'war' since WWII. And yet, a state that is close enough in resemblance to war has existed at multiple points in time since that pretty much everyone calls them 'wars.' There has probably been one person since Truman has in all seriousness referred to Korea as a 'police action,' but I would not want to wager on there being two.

As a practical matter, whatever limitations exist, exist only so long as a political entity either A) holds itself to whatever standards it has set, or B) finds it convenient to do so.

Manticore is a case of the former (I'm sure that Elizabeth would have found it enormously 'convenient' to ignore parliament's dithering over the initial declaration of war against the People's Republic of Haven). The Mandarins and League Navy are a case of the latter (not SL as a whole, the distinction, I think, is rather important).

I don't have ART in front of me, but I recall a discussion about a legal article that allows the SLN to commit combat forces in face of 'imminent threat' or something similar without obtaining a declaration of war owing to League's size, travel times, need for commanders to be able to defend themselves, etc.



In the US, the President has the ability to use the US armed forces for 90 days in a conflict, before he has to ask Congress for a declaration of war.

But, he can only deploy what the armed forces already has or has the money to purchase. He cannot hire more than the previously allotted # of soldiers, he can't buy new tanks, he cannot buy more gas or bullets. He cannot call up any reserves, or State guards forces not already assigned to federal work.

This is what a declaration of war means: $, recruitment, procurement, and power to pull up reserves and regional guard forces.

Without it, you have your normal ops budget, and your normal forces. Small issues you can deal with and react to. Large ones, you can start the wheels moving, then you need the declaration to do more.



Essentially, the SL Constitution and legal precedent recognizes that the same rules which apply to the SLN in a formally declared war also apply in any "state of conflict" situation. Now, there are various levels of conflict, ranging from swatting a single pirate in the Fringe to suppressing an entire System Defense Force that goes rogue, and the constitution has always given the federal government the authority to commit forces without a formal declaration of war to deal with emergency threats.

This means everything the SLN has can be sent off to war, and they can buy more hardware and hire more people all they want as long as they can divert the money from other sources without a new, formal appropriation to support ops. The intent of Article Seven was to allow response to time-critical situations in light of how long it would take (and how hard it would be) to get a formal declaration of war voted out of the Assembly, and the government has specific authority to apply existing funds from other accounts to the war in the short term (i.e., between the exercise of Article Seven and the formal declaration of war). The drafters never envisioned a situation in which other accounts would be drained without a declaration's ever having so much as been formally requested, but they never envisioned the growth of the eventual bureaucracy of the Mandarins, either. It may not have been made sufficiently clear, but it wasn't just the SLN that was in danger of collapse when the till ran dry; it was the entire federal government.

Article Seven has been used many times in the past, however, and the legal precedents are abundantly clear. SLN units operating under Article Seven are legally in "a state of war" whether or not war has been declared. That means they are bound by the Articles of War which govern active hostilities.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by kzt   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:10 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9578
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

The imminent collapse of the SL government was not obvious to me. They really hasn’t spent that much money on the war, had they? They bought lots of missiles, but they essentially shut down BF, but no big procurement to replace losses as far as I knew.
Top
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:18 pm

Kael Posavatz
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:51 am

I apologize, the thrust of my post was aimed at Garth 2's statement that the same limitations must apply to the SL government.

I would argue that they do...and they don't.

Such limitations might exist de jure, but it's also pretty clear that whatever the law intended it certainly isn't happening in fact (or at least not with sufficient force that they can't be ignored which, I own, is not quite the same thing).

The two issues I see are communications lag, and funding.

The former needs local commanders to have some degree of autonomy while messages get delivered, to the point of combat out of whatever resources are available. IIRC Crandall's decision to attack Spindel was described as 'foolish' not illegal when Kolokoltsov et al. discussed it, which means her decision to hare off and attack was at least legally permissible. Maybe. I suspect that regardless if it had been a success the reaction would have been to shrug shoulders and say "It's Tuesday."

An agreement to fund a war by SL's congress is needed, but only when there aren't other funds available. Those fund have, so far, been available. The fees the SL gets for use of wormholes and other regulatory measures (that and looting the Protectorate, of course) might be small in relative terms, but given the size of the League it is ginormous. Oodles and oodles. The Mandarin's haven't needed a War declaration yet because the Navy could borrow what it needed from Education or Commerce.

Now, given the that Manticore has essentially limited its offensive operations to shutting down the wormholes (unlike it's defensive operations where the record for most-lopsided-naval-battle is being repeatedly smashed) that revenue will dry up sooner or later, but if the SL does vote out a declaration it won't be because it 'must' in order to fight a war.

Edit: and the First Space Lord himself posts while I was thinking this out.
Top
Re: Uncompromising Honor Snippet #13 (really this time)
Post by Joat42   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:21 pm

Joat42
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1159
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:01 am
Location: Sweden

kzt wrote:The imminent collapse of the SL government was not obvious to me. They really hasn’t spent that much money on the war, had they? They bought lots of missiles, but they essentially shut down BF, but no big procurement to replace losses as far as I knew.

I don't understand how you can have missed it? It was the whole point of Lacoon 1 & 2, force the SL to the negotiation table by strangling the income to the SL federal government.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
Top

Return to Honorverse