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[SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .

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Re: Now that the war is over . . .
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:16 pm

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dlewis0160 wrote:Ok. Got a bone to pick with a certain red-blooded American author, item #4 above. I knew I remembered an instance where the SK raised junction fees and taxes. Of course the author says nay, that they would never do that, but text-ev has already established that precedent. Perhaps a certain red-blooded author thought I meant it to be used as an additional attack levied against the SL. But I never meant the sentiment to be used as a personal attack heaped on the League but applied across the board. Nothing personal, it is just business. As used twice here. . .

Flag in Exile Ch. 15 wrote:He sipped more coffee and watched the light dots of impeller-drive freighters plying back and forth between Minette's two asteroid belts and Everest's orbital smelters. Minette's industry was unsophisticated, but the system was an important source of raw materials and heavy industrial products, and there'd been plans, once, to upgrade its defenses by adding a powerful shell of orbital fortresses around Everest itself. Like much else, however, that project had been overtaken by the war. Although it required massive fixed defenses to cover the repair and maintenance bases that supported the Fleet in wartime, they were only built during peacetime. Once the fighting actually started, they cost too much, for not even the Star Kingdom could afford to build everything.

It was remarkable that the prewar arms race hadn't wrecked the Manticoran economy, Stanton mused. Although it had been a boom for the armaments industry and done amazing things for applied research, the monetary cost had been staggering. Only the Star Kingdom's enormously productive industrial base and vast merchant marine, coupled with its control of the Manticore Worm Hole Junction, had given it the wealth to absorb such huge peacetime military budgets without major disruptions.

It was getting worse now that the war had actually begun. Taxes and toll fees on the Junction's merchant shipping had already been raised twice. No doubt they'd be going up yet again soon, and finding the trained manpower to simultaneously crew the Fleet and merchant marine and sustain the work force might become a problem, but things might have been far worse. No one else in the Peeps' path had possessed the capability to build a war machine that might stand up to them. Only Manticore had been able to do it . . . and even then only with the Liberal and Progressive Parties screaming like gelded hexapumas at "diverting" so many tax dollars into "alarmist, unproductive military hardware."

Well, Stanton thought grimly, only a thin shell of Peep bases still stood between Admiral White Haven's "unproductive military hardware" and Trevor's Star, the single nexus of the Manticore Junction controlled by the People's Republic, and on his way there, White Haven had decisively blunted the Peeps' overwhelming prewar advantage in ships of the wall. At the same time, Stanton admitted, the Peeps had yet to lose a truly vital system. White Haven's capture of Sun-Yat and its major shipyards had hurt them (and, ultimately, with proper technical upgrades, would no doubt help Manticore), but Sun-Yat's loss was only a flea bite against the military infrastructure they'd spent fifty years building. Which explained why the Alliance could no longer divert capacity to fortifying its rear areas. It had to concentrate on the ships to take the war to the Peeps. And, as certain elements of BuPlan often pointed out, those same starships would also be the most mobile and flexible means of responding to any counteroffensive the Peeps managed to launch.
My bold.


I just thought that was because manticor was in the fight of it's life at the time. Now that the War is over, There is no need for jacking up fees. at lease that's how I read RFC comment :)[/quote]

Likely there will be lot of political repercussions involved in changes in fees. Some places make get preferential treatment in exchange for reciprocated favors.

Or it could be the same for everyone. Manticore got very rich from the fees. It can continue to get very rich.
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Re: Now that the war is over . . .
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:02 pm

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dlewis0160 wrote:Ok. Got a bone to pick with a certain red-blooded American author, item #4 above. I knew I remembered an instance where the SK raised junction fees and taxes. Of course the author says nay, that they would never do that, but text-ev has already established that precedent. Perhaps a certain red-blooded author thought I meant it to be used as an additional attack levied against the SL. But I never meant the sentiment to be used as a personal attack heaped on the League but applied across the board. Nothing personal, it is just business. As used twice here. . .

Flag in Exile Ch. 15 wrote:He sipped more coffee and watched the light dots of impeller-drive freighters plying back and forth between Minette's two asteroid belts and Everest's orbital smelters. Minette's industry was unsophisticated, but the system was an important source of raw materials and heavy industrial products, and there'd been plans, once, to upgrade its defenses by adding a powerful shell of orbital fortresses around Everest itself. Like much else, however, that project had been overtaken by the war. Although it required massive fixed defenses to cover the repair and maintenance bases that supported the Fleet in wartime, they were only built during peacetime. Once the fighting actually started, they cost too much, for not even the Star Kingdom could afford to build everything.

It was remarkable that the prewar arms race hadn't wrecked the Manticoran economy, Stanton mused. Although it had been a boom for the armaments industry and done amazing things for applied research, the monetary cost had been staggering. Only the Star Kingdom's enormously productive industrial base and vast merchant marine, coupled with its control of the Manticore Worm Hole Junction, had given it the wealth to absorb such huge peacetime military budgets without major disruptions.

It was getting worse now that the war had actually begun. Taxes and toll fees on the Junction's merchant shipping had already been raised twice. No doubt they'd be going up yet again soon, and finding the trained manpower to simultaneously crew the Fleet and merchant marine and sustain the work force might become a problem, but things might have been far worse. No one else in the Peeps' path had possessed the capability to build a war machine that might stand up to them. Only Manticore had been able to do it . . . and even then only with the Liberal and Progressive Parties screaming like gelded hexapumas at "diverting" so many tax dollars into "alarmist, unproductive military hardware."

Well, Stanton thought grimly, only a thin shell of Peep bases still stood between Admiral White Haven's "unproductive military hardware" and Trevor's Star, the single nexus of the Manticore Junction controlled by the People's Republic, and on his way there, White Haven had decisively blunted the Peeps' overwhelming prewar advantage in ships of the wall. At the same time, Stanton admitted, the Peeps had yet to lose a truly vital system. White Haven's capture of Sun-Yat and its major shipyards had hurt them (and, ultimately, with proper technical upgrades, would no doubt help Manticore), but Sun-Yat's loss was only a flea bite against the military infrastructure they'd spent fifty years building. Which explained why the Alliance could no longer divert capacity to fortifying its rear areas. It had to concentrate on the ships to take the war to the Peeps. And, as certain elements of BuPlan often pointed out, those same starships would also be the most mobile and flexible means of responding to any counteroffensive the Peeps managed to launch.
My bold.


I just thought that was because manticor was in the fight of it's life at the time. Now that the War is over, There is no need for jacking up fees. at lease that's how I read RFC comment :)[/quote]

ldwechsler wrote:Likely there will be lot of political repercussions involved in changes in fees. Some places make get preferential treatment in exchange for reciprocated favors.

Or it could be the same for everyone. Manticore got very rich from the fees. It can continue to get very rich.


Well, the winged seraphim is no longer in a fight for her life, I suppose. But my original point included a fight for its economic health, or rather the health of its carrying trade and the little freighter companies who could. You don't want to lose your smaller companies thus foregoing healthy competition. The SEM has been spending voraciously to support the war. I only imagined a temporary raise in fees and taxes.

Lawsuits, rebuilding infrastructure lost from Oyster Bay, subsidizing alliance members, bank rolling new alliance members, and the terrible cost of maintaining as close a resemblance to DEFCON 2 as possible could be offset by a temporary raise in taxes and fees to help support the companies who are floundering.

Pass the cost on to the consumers. Nothing personal just business. It just didn't sound like Manticore to allow companies of its carrying trade to go belly up as a result of the war. No man left behind.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Now that the war is over . . .
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:26 am

ldwechsler
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cthia wrote:
Or it could be the same for everyone. Manticore got very rich from the fees. It can continue to get very rich.


Well, the winged seraphim is no longer in a fight for her life, I suppose. But my original point included a fight for its economic health, or rather the health of its carrying trade and the little freighter companies who could. You don't want to lose your smaller companies thus foregoing healthy competition. The SEM has been spending voraciously to support the war. I only imagined a temporary raise in fees and taxes.

Lawsuits, rebuilding infrastructure lost from Oyster Bay, subsidizing alliance members, bank rolling new alliance members, and the terrible cost of maintaining as close a resemblance to DEFCON 2 as possible could be offset by a temporary raise in taxes and fees to help support the companies who are floundering.

Pass the cost on to the consumers. Nothing personal just business. It just didn't sound like Manticore to allow companies of its carrying trade to go belly up as a result of the war. No man left behind.[/quote]

There are all sorts of twists, turns and consequences and probably they won't really get touched on since they would get in the way of plot.
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Re: Now that the war is over . . .
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:58 pm

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dlewis0160 wrote:Ok. Got a bone to pick with a certain red-blooded American author, item #4 above. I knew I remembered an instance where the SK raised junction fees and taxes. Of course the author says nay, that they would never do that, but text-ev has already established that precedent. Perhaps a certain red-blooded author thought I meant it to be used as an additional attack levied against the SL. But I never meant the sentiment to be used as a personal attack heaped on the League but applied across the board. Nothing personal, it is just business. As used twice here. . .
Um that's not what RFC said, or at least now how I read it.

He said
runsforcelery wrote:The peace terms hewed to sort of anti-Verdun[sic] Theory. No reparations, no hard ceilings on warships, full recognition of the new Constitution as soon as it's adopted, immediate reopening of the hyper bridges at prewar transit rates, etc.
I'm assuming the war he's referring to is the one with the League, not the original one with Haven.

He didn't say that Manticore never raised junction rates. Nor did he promise that from this day forward they wouldn't raise rates.

All he said (assuming I'm right about which war he meant) is that Manticore would keep the rates exactly what they were the day before Byng blew up those defenseless destroyers. Implied in that is that those rates will remain stable over at least the medium short term.

That's enough to make the point that they're not applying punitive rates in response to the war. It doesn't much matter, in making that point, whether the rates are the same as they were in, say, 1900 PD.


(And should Manticore face another emergency and need to raise rates, or simply down the road raise rates to cover inflation or anti-piracy costs, that still shouldn't invalidate the effect of showing they weren't applying punitive rates in retaliation for the SLN's attacks)
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:43 pm

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I have to imagine that Manticore, Beowulf and a whole lot of other places want things to quiet down and settle as fast as possible.
The Harrington Plan included in it's aims the breaking up of the League into fragments small enough to not be a problem for Manticore to have to go after it/them militarily for -hopefully -more than decades, by which time a differnt and more peacefull situation would have stabilized. With OFS out of the picture, the Transtellars and various strongman governments without the SLN hammer to smash up resistance, that the spin-offs of the League including all those Protectorates are hoped to become trading partners.
That, in the main, is what it sounds like is the direction the League is being forced into. It will shrink. The Protectorates will come out of the economic and other bondage. The new Constitution should address the need for actual accountability of the bureaucracy and more control by the remaining Members on what goes on.

Manticore wants trade resumed and it is trade that will resolve a number of the problems still being faced. The Junction and the existing pre-war wormhole bridges linking routes to it are going to be busy in ways they haven't been in perhaps 30 years. The entire Haven Quadrant will be open for trade. Haven isn't going to be the grasping entity it was and trade will flow freely in the RH space. Silesia has been wrestled into more or less submission though it took Manticore and the Alderman taking actual control of their halves to do it. Trade has to flow or many of the Core Worlds are going to be stuck with the problems of Lacoon I (at least) so they are going to have to come to agreements with Manticore and the GA as well as myriad Star Nations both in and outside of the former sphere of SL control. For the first time in quite a while, the Core and Shell systems are going to have to rebuild a lot of diplomatic and commercial links to replace a whole list of things the Old League did for them (at a cost). They also have to rescale the Constitution so that there must be responsibilitey places on each system to make cooperative agreements rather than be compelled by the League via adminstrative fiat.
That is going to be a stiff learning curve.
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Re: Now that the war is over . . .
Post by kaid   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:41 am

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Senior Chief wrote:
noblehunter wrote:Presumably, Manticore can finance rebuilding by drawing down their fleet. Since they don't have idiots in charge, they can be confident that they won't go back to war.



A peace dividend... how did that work out before?

Not as confident as you that there would be no more wars thus no need for a reduced fleet. Of course his nibs may proved everyone wrong when and if he writes more in this series.



They do talk about this a bit in the book as well but probably they will have no choice but to draw down on wallers but at the same time now that they have a lot more area to patrol with talbot/mesa/their half of silesia they probably are going to be in a position of having to actually build UP their DD and cruiser forces. Those had fallen a bit by the way side in the face of the need to build up their sledge hammer but once active war operations subside the lighter units are going to start becoming way more critical to their needs.
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Re: Now that the war is over . . .
Post by dsrseraphin   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:53 pm

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cthia wrote:
I think another term should be coined. "Build down" and "Draw down." :?:

::helpless shrug for help::


Borrowing terms from IT ...

Build Up is adding/replacing with 'better' platforms
Build Down is replacing/retiring platforms so that the minimum is less than before
Up Grade is making the platform 'more'
Down Grade is making the platform 'less'
Build Out is adding more platforms

...

So what was being described would be: a tonnage down grade build down for Capital ships with a simultaneous build out in Destroyers & Cruisers

-David S.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:28 pm

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I just found this topic and have not read all 107 previous posts but... excuse me... the war is over???

I did not see where the MA was dealt with and we all know they have been, not only the puppet master behind the curtain of the Solarian League, and OFS but they have their fingers in many other systems pie and they have this long range plan...

Over?? I think now!
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Now that the war is over . . .
Post by dsrseraphin   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:48 pm

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cthia wrote:
Well, the winged seraphim is no longer in a fight for her life, I suppose. But my original point included a fight for its economic health, or rather the health of its carrying trade and the little freighter companies who could. You don't want to lose your smaller companies thus foregoing healthy competition. The SEM has been spending voraciously to support the war. I only imagined a temporary raise in fees and taxes.

Lawsuits, rebuilding infrastructure lost from Oyster Bay, subsidizing alliance members, bank rolling new alliance members, and the terrible cost of maintaining as close a resemblance to DEFCON 2 as possible could be offset by a temporary raise in taxes and fees to help support the companies who are floundering.

Pass the cost on to the consumers. Nothing personal just business. It just didn't sound like Manticore to allow companies of its carrying trade to go belly up as a result of the war. No man left behind.


I basically agree with RFC, not because he's the 'guy' but because it makes the most macro-economic sense.

First, do not raise the fees to SL flagged merchants.
Second, for GA merchantmen, if they can prove harm due to the recent Laocoon actions, give them a reduction on their per transit fees totaling up to their losses. If the GA merchantman folds, allow the liability and the hulls to be transferred to another GA merchantman.
Third, for all the junctions that were taken over in Laocoon 2, encourage those systems to retain GA certified junction traffic control & GA affiliated Junction Fort & LAC force - all of which would be paid for by a transit fee surcharge. The surcharge would be low/non-existent for 'home' flagged bottoms, moderate for GA bottoms (subject to whatever reductions the ship is subject to), and full tariff for other bottoms (subject to whatever rates are negotiated by the star nations for ships flying their flag).

This scheme will encourage GA merchant fleet recovery and expansion, while allowing non GA competition.

As for the 'new' junctions, to the winner goes the spoils but don't be an ass about it (see Hong Kong, Macau, Panama Canal). Build a Junction NETWORK that is certified & protected by a nominally independent treaty organization. Get it to pay for itself (after repaying the GA's initial capitalization). The insurance companies will absolutely love the setup - their insured hulls being transited by know & certified professionals and being protected by the same tech that the winner used. Give it a decade (or so) and junctions that were never affected by Laocoon 2 will be signing up join the network just to get a slice of 'insured' traffic.

The upside for the GA is as sponsor/most-favored-nation it gets inside track for any intelligence developed and it avoids the operational cost for the network's protective services. In fact the only cost it will need to bear is the expansion (and the maintenance of that expansion/adjunct) of Saganami Island. It is imperative that the officer corps (and line staff, if possible) of both the traffic control branch and the protective services branch be beholden to the Manticorian traditions - loyalty to traditions is a very strong motivator and is its own silk chain.

The goal being to build a Pax Manticoria based, not upon military might but, upon the economic advantages of 'silk roads'. Yes technology will eventually eclipse the 'silk roads', but by then it will be the Post Honorverse and something will replace the empire that will be built on top of the GA. Whether it will be a descendant (as in Pax Americana succeeding Pax Britannica) or a replacement - it will be a future future history and a whole 'nother set of stories.

-David S.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by dsrseraphin   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:01 pm

dsrseraphin
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:51 pm

C. O. Thompson wrote:I just found this topic and have not read all 107 previous posts but... excuse me... the war is over???

I did not see where the MA was dealt with and we all know they have been, not only the puppet master behind the curtain of the Solarian League, and OFS but they have their fingers in many other systems pie and they have this long range plan...

Over?? I think now!


The SL v GA hot war is over (let the political and economic scrimmage begin)!!

The MA v GA cold war is definitely not over - just headed to between rounds, while the fighters get their ribs taped, etc.
Both sides are chomping at the bit hoping that they are the one to land the haymaker that ends the conflict for once and for all. Unfortunately (or fortunately from the storyteller's & readers' viewpoint), I get the feeling there are several more rounds to go.

-David S.
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